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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2001 : 08:10:58
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Hope you all get a kick outta this...I did:
Bush's Spiritial Advisor blames church, not Bin Laden
Be sure to listen to the audio clip of the sermon for a taste of idiocy.
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." [Albert Einstein]
Edited by - dimossi on 10/04/2001 11:31:47
Edited by - dimossi on 10/04/2001 11:32:24
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2001 : 08:25:49 [Permalink]
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My goodness, what complete and utter nonsense!
I need to sit down with a local religious person and try to find out exactly what they think the whole idea of prayer really is, and what they think they can accomplish with it...
The logic of this (that one is responsible for someone else's actions because they didn't pray for them to change), even if you do believe in praying, is so idiotic, I just can't believe he wasn't laughed off the stage.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 09:35:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Don't forget this is power over practicality. With men and women some things are impossible. But with God all things are possible. It is not ours to reason, it is ours to be obedient. Had bin Laden been in our prayers for the last five years, who knows what would have happened, but we've not prayed for him. Just because a person is Muslim, crazy or a terrorist does not mean he or she cannot be arrested by the power of God."
'...power over practicality...'
'...not ours to reason,...but to be obedient.'
Huh? This is the *spiritual advisor* to the president? Oh, we're in trouble then. No reason now is a dangerous thing. And to whom are we to be obedient? His version of god?
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." ~Blaise Pascal |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 09:51:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
My goodness, what complete and utter nonsense!
I need to sit down with a local religious person and try to find out exactly what they think the whole idea of prayer really is, and what they think they can accomplish with it...
The logic of this (that one is responsible for someone else's actions because they didn't pray for them to change), even if you do believe in praying, is so idiotic, I just can't believe he wasn't laughed off the stage.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
How about shocked silence. Although I believe in the power of "prayer" to change events, I also believe that sometimes the answer is no and I plan for that possibility. Prayer is no substitute for preparedness.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 10:32:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Although I believe in the power of "prayer" to change events, I also believe that sometimes the answer is no and I plan for that possibility. Prayer is no substitute for preparedness.
Just out of curiosity, is this power derived from the "hundredth monkey" concept, or by some supernatural being who is listening, and has the power to change things?
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In regards to the sermon, claiming that one is responsible because they didn't pray hard enough has got to be the all time most nonsensical, laughable, ridiculous, and most absurd claims in a religion full of nonsensical, laughable, ridiculous, and absurd claims...
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 10:37:14 [Permalink]
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You know who's really at fault? That's right...the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for bin Laden. And let's not forget the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for bin Laden. Ok, I'll stop 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 10:46:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know who's really at fault? That's right...the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for bin Laden. And let's not forget the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for the people that didn't pray for bin Laden. Ok, I'll stop
Hee hee! 
I've mentioned this before, but this again brings it to mind:
Does this guy think that God was up in Heaven, watching the terrorists boarding the planes, knowing what was going to happen, thinking "If only a couple hundred more of my followers had prayed for Bin Laden, I'd stop those guys... Oh well!"
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 11:10:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
I've mentioned this before, but this again brings it to mind:
Does this guy think that God was up in Heaven, watching the terrorists boarding the planes, knowing what was going to happen, thinking "If only a couple hundred more of my followers had prayed for Bin Laden, I'd stop those guys... Oh well!"
Oof. Talk about perspective. Nice one TD.
This signature does not exist. |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 11:29:04 [Permalink]
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Interesting letter written to the President about this article:
http://www.the-archon.com/prez.htm
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." [Albert Einstein] |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 13:06:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Although I believe in the power of "prayer" to change events, I also believe that sometimes the answer is no and I plan for that possibility. Prayer is no substitute for preparedness.
Just out of curiosity, is this power derived from the "hundredth monkey" concept, or by some supernatural being who is listening, and has the power to change things?
Since the concept is faith based and has no basis in scientific reality, then non-believers would think that I was wasteing my time. I believe that prayer can be used as a tool to change my own behaviors and unconscious mindset.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 13:10:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Since the concept is faith based and has no basis in scientific reality, then non-believers would think that I was wasteing my time. I believe that prayer can be used as a tool to change my own behaviors and unconscious mindset.
No offense but isn't this also called will power
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 13:24:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Since the concept is faith based and has no basis in scientific reality, then non-believers would think that I was wasteing my time. I believe that prayer can be used as a tool to change my own behaviors and unconscious mindset.
No offense but isn't this also called will power
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
It is a form. Prayer also has the function for me to help deal with situations wildly out of my control. Giving a mental peace in a time of crisis so that I can concentrate on next steps. Atheists have a different mechanism for fulfilling this same need.
I have a need to commune with the divine. (Atheists have no need for this function as it has no basis for the need) Prayer is that mechanism as well.
In short. The Reverend who suggested that the Church did not pray hard enough is a whack job. Prayer only serves the religious. Prayer does not serve a useful purpose for Atheists. "Power of Prayer" is a subjective term denoting some need getting fulfilled through the application of religious means to change the prayor's (person praying) mindset or behaviors.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 17:25:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Power of Prayer" is a subjective term denoting some need getting fulfilled through the application of religious means to change the prayor's (person praying) mindset or behaviors.
Then praying would not be of much practical use against suicidal mass murders, now would it?
That's the problem that this minister and Fartwell and friends are having. The death of 6500 innocent people is the ultimate "argument from evil" that is the stock and trade of we Atheists. The ministers are blaming the victims because their god behaved as though he weren't even there. They are shaken by the obvious lack of a deity that they believe whole heartedly in, and are responding from panic.
Epicurus, 341--270BCE, even wrote a poem on the subject.
Are the Gods willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then they are not omnipotent.
Are they able, but not willing?
Then they are malevolent.
Are they both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Are they neither able nor willing?
Then why call them Gods? |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 18:33:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Epicurus, 341--270BCE, even wrote a poem on the subject.
Are the Gods willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then they are not omnipotent.
Are they able, but not willing?
Then they are malevolent.
Are they both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Are they neither able nor willing?
Then why call them Gods?
[/golf clap]
That's excellent! Thank you. Such simple elegance, to convey an idea so profound.
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 06:28:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
"Power of Prayer" is a subjective term denoting some need getting fulfilled through the application of religious means to change the prayor's (person praying) mindset or behaviors.
Then praying would not be of much practical use against suicidal mass murders, now would it?
That's the problem that this minister and Fartwell and friends are having. The death of 6500 innocent people is the ultimate "argument from evil" that is the stock and trade of we Atheists. The ministers are blaming the victims because their god behaved as though he weren't even there. They are shaken by the obvious lack of a deity that they believe whole heartedly in, and are responding from panic.
Epicurus, 341--270BCE, even wrote a poem on the subject.
Are the Gods willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then they are not omnipotent.
Are they able, but not willing?
Then they are malevolent.
Are they both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Are they neither able nor willing?
Then why call them Gods?
Slater,
We are talking about the practical application of prayer, not some misguided zealot's interpretation of it. If I were on one of the planes, I expect that my religion would have given me some solace before I died. The Christian God claims to shield it's followers from the acts of madmen and zealots. The Wiccan God(dess) stresses personal spiritual growth. It holds the practitioner responsible for their own actions and others responsible for their own actions. My God and Goddess are my friends. Beings I can talk to and who understand me. Beings that I empower to help me grow mentally and spiritually. Am I religious? Yes, deeply. Do I allow that religion to dictate what scientific data I believe? No.
Does it affect my philosiphy? Yes, because religion is a form of philosiphy. As I said, prayer is no substitute for preparedness.
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 08:41:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
As I said, prayer is no substitute for preparedness. [VD]
Pray towards Heaven, but row towards shore.
(:raig |
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