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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2005 : 19:38:28
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One could only hope that this is a joke, but it seems, it isn't.
Here's something about the "Love in Action" leader from one of his former employees:
quote:
"I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery." --The Final Indoctrination from John Smid, Director, Love In Action (LIA), San Rafael's "ex-gay" clan.
"That's exactly how he put it," states Tom Ottosen, 24, an expressive, articulate two year ex-LIA group member.
Ottosen says he clearly recalls that experience. He says it occurred in October of last year during his last one-on-one conference with John Smid, LIA's Executive Director, who claims to be able to change gay men into straight men through a live-in rigidly controlled indoctrination program Smid calls "reparative therapy."
Ottosen says Smid clearly and emphatically warned him, "It would be better if I were to commit suicide than go back into the world and become a homosexual again. He felt that a physical death--with my soul intact--was much preferable to a spiritual death, which would happen if I were to leave the group and go back to being gay." claims Ottosen.
Here's the list of rules he's posted. It's a long read, some make sense, some don't!
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 06/14/2005 19:42:21
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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latsot
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
70 Posts |
 Posted - 06/15/2005 : 01:56:34 [Permalink]
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This made me feel physically sick. I'm not sure I even know where to begin discussing it. Aside from the general impression of reading a classic brainwashing manual and the more pertinent point that this 'treatment' can apparently be administered without permission, how about the ban on 'reading of any kind' or the entering of 'secular' bookshops without permission? And what about the ban (hilarious if it weren't so sinister) on listening to music that is not 'specifically Christian'?
Bach's music isn't known for its corruptive influences - this is about *indoctrination*, not about removing supposedly corruptive influences.
I could just as easily have picked up on virtually any rule - depressing, isn't it?
Cheers
r |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 02:40:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by latsot
This made me feel physically sick. I'm not sure I even know where to begin discussing it. Aside from the general impression of reading a classic brainwashing manual and the more pertinent point that this 'treatment' can apparently be administered without permission, how about the ban on 'reading of any kind' or the entering of 'secular' bookshops without permission? And what about the ban (hilarious if it weren't so sinister) on listening to music that is not 'specifically Christian'?
Bach's music isn't known for its corruptive influences - this is about *indoctrination*, not about removing supposedly corruptive influences.
I could just as easily have picked up on virtually any rule - depressing, isn't it?
Cheers
r
Yes. But unfortunatly, this is merely another pack of religious cultists sheltering under the completely unsupported conjecture that gays can be 'cured.' They virtually litter the landscape, and many of them are even worse.
It is a hateful parent indeed, that would hand a child over to these freaks.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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latsot
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 02:48:08 [Permalink]
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Rules to be given to the parents:
> 4. Donąt allow client to split your family. Unite to present
> stability and unity.
Don't allow the *client* to split the family?!?
r |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 06:11:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
No continuing education while in the program. Home-school Refuge clients may be allowed to continue their studies during the program, pending approval by LIA staff.
What in the hell, wouldn't this be illegal? Messed up beyond all reason :< |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 06:45:18 [Permalink]
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| Well they dont want anyone finding out about evolution now do they. Funny part about these camps is that most of these kids are gay in secret and dont find others like themselves, but at boot camp, everyones gay and finding a mate is easy. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Giltwist
Skeptic Friend
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2005 : 18:46:31 [Permalink]
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You know, I'm kinda sick of Christians bashing homosexuality. I've read the Bible and those verses that are typically used to defame homosexuality are being really misinterpreted, IMO. Take the story of Onan (Genesis 38: 8-10).
quote:
Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.
This passage is generally used by the Catholic Church to vilify the wasting of a man's seed. From here we get an argument against masturbation, contraception, and homosexuality all in one. (Incidentally if it's just wasting seed that is wrong, why is FEMALE masturbation bad too?) However, if you look at WHY Onan was struck down, the wasting of seed is incidental. The real reason that God struck Onan down was that Onan flat out disobeyed a direct command.
quote:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
This is one of the stronger accusations against homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13). However, I think that if you look at verse 18, the picture changes a bit.
quote:
If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people
This goes back to clean/unclean food debate. In the words of Chris Rock, a few thousand years ago, before they had refridgerators, seasonings, etc., a pork chop might kill you. Today, it's relatively safe to eat pork, which is probably part of the reason that it became acceptable to eat foods previously considered unclean. In the bit here about sex during the monthly period, that would be VERY unsanitary in a desert society where water was scarce. I'm not sure they had figured out natural condoms like a sheep bladder yet, either. Similarly, anal intercourse would be pretty dang unsanitary. Even today, without the proper accoutrements, anal sex is not so good for the recipient, male or female. I imagine that if anyone had thought of it at the time, anal intercourse would have been barred here in it's entirety instead of just between two men. I'm sure they just assumed if you had a woman to bed, you'd do it as nature intended ;)
G.
PS. Incidentally, for all intents and purposes I am a Christian despite several key idealogical differences between myself and the Church-at-large. These are mostly due to my incorporation of other religious systems into my own belief system. |
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| Edited by - Giltwist on 06/15/2005 18:49:30 |
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latsot
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
70 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 03:53:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know, I'm kinda sick of Christians bashing homosexuality.
I'm sick of anyone bashing homosexuality, but for some reason it particularly annoys me when christians do it. it seems so....institutional, I suppose.
quote:
This goes back to clean/unclean food debate. In the words of Chris Rock, a few thousand years ago, before they had refridgerators, seasonings, etc., a pork chop might kill you. Today, it's relatively safe to eat pork, which is probably part of the reason that it became acceptable to eat foods previously considered unclean. In the bit here about sex during the monthly period, that would be VERY unsanitary in a desert society where water was scarce. I'm not sure they had figured out natural condoms like a sheep bladder yet, either. Similarly, anal intercourse would be pretty dang unsanitary. Even today, without the proper accoutrements, anal sex is not so good for the recipient, male or female. I imagine that if anyone had thought of it at the time, anal intercourse would have been barred here in it's entirety instead of just between two men. I'm sure they just assumed if you had a woman to bed, you'd do it as nature intended ;)
I don't disagree with anything you say, but I doubt that the prohibition on these various things originally had anything to do with hygine. I could suggest various social factors that would also be persuasive, but this would be pure speculation.
r |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:10:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Giltwist
This goes back to clean/unclean food debate. In the words of Chris Rock, a few thousand years ago, before they had refridgerators, seasonings, etc., a pork chop might kill you. Today, it's relatively safe to eat pork, which is probably part of the reason that it became acceptable to eat foods previously considered unclean.
I recently learned that the Hebrew word for "unclean" comes from the Hebrew word for "flesh of a live animal." In other words, the original restrictions (pre-Old Testament) probably had more to do with making sure people cooked their meat than anything about particular kinds of animals.
And in any age, without proper storage and handling, beef can kill you just as easy as pork. The OT restrictions don't make much sense from that angle, either. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 09:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W:
And in any age, without proper storage and handling, beef can kill you just as easy as pork. The OT restrictions don't make much sense from that angle, either.
Yes but some foods were particularly suspect. TRICHINOSIS is more commonly found in pork than in beef, for example. And while it is true that cooking pork to a certain temperature kills the worm, my guess is that it was harder to monitor the internal temperatures of meat 3000 years ago. So it is not surprising that pork made it to the “unclean” list of dietary laws. I doubt that the dietary laws as laid down in the bible are arbitrary. Those laws may have been a matter of common sense for the safe consumption of certain foods, given what they knew at the time…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 00:06:54 [Permalink]
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Doesn't the Hebrew word/s for "unclean" also have some spiritual connotation?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 04:19:24 [Permalink]
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It looks like the kid has been re-uped for six more weeks of this shit.
I sometimes wish that there really was a hell. There are so many people who so richly deserve to spend some time in one....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 21:06:56 [Permalink]
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>> This touches on the over all issue of what rights do children have. Apparently, as of now, none. Not freedom of speech or religion certainly. They can be detained against their wish.
Yeah, that's called parents' rights. And no, children don't get the same rights as adults. Society couldn't function otherwise. But they do have some rights, as shown by children's services.
>> Pretty much anything that doesn't cause physical or strong emotional harm is legal, or so it seems. And I think that this "camp" could be considered emotional harm. Not being able to communicate with anyone for 2-3 days? That has to be healthy.
I don't know about you, but I don't want the government to start getting picky about what is "emotional harm". I'm fine with the line being drawn at people who physically harm their kids - such as the people who neglect sick kids by using only prayer instead of known medical treatments that work. But as soon as we start getting beyond that we're in murky waters and on the road toward facism. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/06/2005 21:08:38 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2005 : 04:07:32 [Permalink]
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Hi marfknox, and welcome to SFN!
At my last reading, a couple of weeks ago, this 'boot camp' was under state investagation and might be shut down by now. One hopes.
quote:
I don't know about you, but I don't want the government to start getting picky about what is "emotional harm". I'm fine with the line being drawn at people who physically harm their kids - such as the people who neglect sick kids by using only prayer instead of known medical treatments that work. But as soon as we start getting beyond that we're in murky waters and on the road toward facism.
Murkey waters indeed.
I think that much of our attitude toward children is a remainder from the days when a child's survival beyond it's first, few years was very much in doubt. The mortaltiy rate would be appalling to to us today, although we still see it in places like Africa. Thus, any surviving child was valued and pretty much expected to follow in the family tradition, as it were. In largely agricultural societies, that meant, for male children, farming and getting their own families going. There were few further options other than the priesthood, and in the Church is where many of the gays of yore ended up. Of course, others ran off to the cities, where they sometimes succeded in the arts or business, but more often failed.
I find it unfortunate that this kid's parents are not responsible under the law for their abuse.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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