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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2005 : 18:10:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?
I must ask: which maker? Over the many millina, there have been a multitude of them, none apparently superior to the rest, although some few were far more colorful and interesting than the current crop.
Further, is my unbelief any less creditable than your belief in something that, by it's very nature, can't be tested? And does or should this have any impact whatever on the data?
When a so-called 'gap' is closed, I rejoice only in the addition to our knowledge. Deities, or the lack thereof mean little to me, as I am only interested in that which can be tested and falsified. By their very nature, unsupported faith and beliefs, as well as atheism cannot.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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latsot
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
70 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 04:39:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
I again wonder what kind of evidence would be required for belief.
Tested and verfiable. Evidence that can stand examiniation like how all other evidence is treated in the modern scientific world. But it would no longer be belief is such evidence were uncovered. It would simply just be.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 06/20/2005 04:39:55 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 05:10:29 [Permalink]
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Markie is sounding more and more like a Latter day Saintist, Mormon that is.
God making neat patterns in the EDIT: STARS# would do it for me, Like Spelling out "Hey, God Here, You are wrong about me!" That would be good enough for me..., but I would need verification from Austrailia. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/20/2005 09:37:52 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:20:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkBut God does have a personal interest and investment in each human being. We are being nurtured and developed so that we too have a hand in bringing the universe to ever increasing perfection.
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky If this is the case, God has failed. Unless you have another explaination for sociopaths, terrorists, and George W. Bush (who could be considered both).
Yes the evidence for current imperfection is clear. But current imperfection is only an impetus towards increasing perfection. And those who persistently resist Jesus' call to "become perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" will not find themselves worthy of participation in an advancing cosmic civilization in the ages to come. (Just a religious opinon of course :))
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 07:36:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthyAnd I might argue that it was trajectory-puked by the Vestal Vulture in a last ditch defense against the Celestial Hypnotoad (All hail the Hypnotoad!!). It's as good a conjecture as any yet put forth.
Hehe, very funny. But a conjecture should pass the test of what we would regard as beautiful and good.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
How would you define 'nutured' and 'developed,' and indeed, 'perfection' in this context? Could this signify that He/She/It failed to get it right on the first try?
While mistakes, even deliberate transgression by beings futher up the pike have serioulsy hampered our progress, there was no intent that things be perfect from the start. The intent from the beginning, for beings like us anyways, was an ascent from mere biological entity to God conscious cosmic citizens.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 08:00:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.Well, for one thing, I'm trying to get you to define "mind-meaning" and "spirit-value" as terms that we can both use in this and other threads so that we'll be talking about the same thing.
Sorry about that. In very broad terms, I see reality in three general categories: material-mechanism, mind-meaning and spirit-value. By spirt-value I mean more of an ultimate, eternal value type of thing. By mind-meaning I'm talking about, well, the meanings of things as apprehended by mind. By material-mechanism I'm talking about those things which science has to do. Separating the three, or denying that mind and spirit can even have objective existence as can material mechanism, is a big mistake imo. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 08:12:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker?  quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Why?
Why not?
For one thing, if I'm wrong, I'm simply mistaken. If you're wrong, well, it is of greater consequence.
Mark
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 09:11:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
In very broad terms, I see reality in three general categories: material-mechanism, mind-meaning and spirit-value. By spirt-value I mean more of an ultimate, eternal value type of thing. By mind-meaning I'm talking about, well, the meanings of things as apprehended by mind. By material-mechanism I'm talking about those things which science has to do. Separating the three, or denying that mind and spirit can even have objective existence as can material mechanism, is a big mistake imo.
SInce you agreed in a previous thread that your "supermaterial <insert word here>" was all part of this universe, then you are now just making wild assumptions about how things are.
Evidence. You have none. Until you get some, your claims have no merit.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 09:42:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Sorry about that. In very broad terms, I see reality in three general categories: material-mechanism, mind-meaning and spirit-value. By spirt-value I mean more of an ultimate, eternal value type of thing. By mind-meaning I'm talking about, well, the meanings of things as apprehended by mind. By material-mechanism I'm talking about those things which science has to do. Separating the three, or denying that mind and spirit can even have objective existence as can material mechanism, is a big mistake imo.
Well, given those definitions, there is really only one category. After all, cognitive sciences are busy figuring out the "mind-meaning" part, entirely through "material-mechanisms."
And, of course, there doesn't appear to be any sort of absolute "spirit-value." It seems clear that "eternal values" are largely dependent upon culture and upbringing. As such, they seem to be just an extension of "mind-meaning," so see above. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:00:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by markie
So to skeptics who rejoice everytime a new law of nature is uncovered, another "gap" supposely closed; as you sun youself in the illusion you have yet another excuse to justify your unbelief: why not rejoice instead that you're that much closer to discerning the workings of the Mind of the Maker? quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Why?
Why not?
For one thing, if I'm wrong, I'm simply mistaken. If you're wrong, well, it is of greater consequence.
Mark
This is called Pascal's Wager. It's been a while since I've seen it.
quote:
While mistakes, even deliberate transgression by beings futher up the pike have serioulsy hampered our progress, there was no intent that things be perfect from the start. The intent from the beginning, for beings like us anyways, was an ascent from mere biological entity to God conscious cosmic citizens.
So, you are saying that God or the Hypnotoad (Whom all hail!) has a grand scheme of some sort in mind?
A conjecture is no more than that because it has yet to be tested. If it fails the tests, it becomes no more a stray thought. If it cannot be tested, it will never be more than a mere conjecture; a speculation.
And who says that the glorious Hypnotoad (Yay, Hypnotoad!! ) is not beautiful and good?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/20/2005 10:10:39 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:02:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthyI must ask: which maker? Over the many millina, there have been a multitude of them, none apparently superior to the rest, although some few were far more colorful and interesting than the current crop.
I meant the *ultimate* Source of Course :) . But really you do have a point since the picture would be much more complicated than that, as ultimate Deity would delegate creatorship and stewardship to a descending heirarchy of less perfect beings.
quote:
Originally posted by filthyFurther, is my unbelief any less creditable than your belief in something that, by it's very nature, can't be tested? And does or should this have any impact whatever on the data?
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism? Personally I think materialism is less credible. Does it make any difference in the data? Probably very little, except that there might be a difference in the direction of scientific enquiry and hence the kinds of data obtained.
quote:
Originally posted by filthyWhen a so-called 'gap' is closed, I rejoice only in the addition to our knowledge. Deities, or the lack thereof mean little to me, as I am only interested in that which can be tested and falsified. By their very nature, unsupported faith and beliefs, as well as atheism cannot.
Someone on the list (I forget who) has a little story to his signature about a man so fixated with his dog and how his dog was just like him, that he became essentially canine himself. My hope is that we do not become so caught up in the computer paradigm - yes/no, true/false that we desire little more than what computers or logic can offer us.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:10:47 [Permalink]
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We are not suggesting that there isnt "more than we can test" Just that to assume there is "more than we can test" is as silly as assuming there isnt.
These words I live by,
Assumption is the genesis of surprise and the enemy of understanding.
You assume wild speculation on top of wild speculation. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:25:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Someone on the list (I forget who) has a little story to his signature about a man so fixated with his dog and how his dog was just like him, that he became essentially canine himself. My hope is that we do not become so caught up in the computer paradigm - yes/no, true/false that we desire little more than what computers or logic can offer us.
As long as there is free thought, this won't happen. A computer is a mere tool and logic will never overcome imagination, for good or ill.
quote:
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism? Personally I think materialism is less credible. Does it make any difference in the data? Probably very little, except that there might be a difference in the direction of scientific enquiry and hence the kinds of data obtained.
Reality by it's very nature is testable, and data is either correct or flawed -- or ignored in favor of dogma or the aforementioned imagination. Proper science in all fields follows the data, where ever they might lead.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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