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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:28:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
I again wonder what kind of evidence would be required for belief.[quote]Originally posted by pleco
Tested and verfiable. Evidence that can stand examiniation like how all other evidence is treated in the modern scientific world. But it would no longer be belief is such evidence were uncovered. It would simply just be.
Science generates data all right but the interpretation of the data is the stickler. For instance there is if I recall at least four contending interpretations of Quantum Theory which are quite different from each other in their outlook.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:34:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism?
As soon as we extend "reality" to include that which is not verifiable, we eliminate the meaning of the word "reality" as being something different from imagination, delusion or hallucination.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:37:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Markie is sounding more and more like a Latter day Saintist, Mormon that is.
Well OK, maybe I don't come off sounding like a Saint. Neither did Jesus on all occassions. 
I'm not up on what Mormons believe in this regard so I can't comment on that aspect.
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
God making neat patterns in the EDIT: STARS# would do it for me, Like Spelling out "Hey, God Here, You are wrong about me!" That would be good enough for me..., but I would need verification from Austrailia.
That would take a *lot* of stars to get that message across. And then if the message appeared in English we wouldn't hear the end of it from the French. And so on 
Perhaps if God stooped down to deliver the message in Ascii code, in the digits of Pi (3.1415926...) or e (2.7172...) there would be no mistaking. Then again, I'm sure there are some here like Dave who could, assuming random digits, compute how many digits would be required to reach a 50-50 probability of seeing that message. It *is* in there, somewhere.... (edit insertion: theoretically, an infinite number of times) But I guess that isn't good enough either, ha!
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| Edited by - markie on 06/20/2005 12:04:02 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:43:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Markie is sounding more and more like a Latter day Saintist, Mormon that is.
Well OK, maybe I don't come off sounding like a Saint. Neither did Jesus on all occassions.
I'm not up on what Mormons believe in this regard so I can't comment on that aspect.
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
God making neat patterns in the EDIT: STARS# would do it for me, Like Spelling out "Hey, God Here, You are wrong about me!" That would be good enough for me..., but I would need verification from Austrailia.
That would take a *lot* of stars to get that message across. And then if the message appeared in English we wouldn't hear the end of it from the French. And so on
Perhaps if God stooped down to deliver the message in Ascii code, in the digits of Pi (3.1415926...) or e (2.718281828459...) there would be no mistaking. I'm sure there are some here like Dave who could, assuming random digits, compute how many digits would be required to reach say a 50-50 probability of seeing that message. It *is* in there, an infinite number of times.... But *that's* not good enough, is it?
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:48:21 [Permalink]
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markie apears to be a man with faith in god who is uncomfortable saying as much. Desperately, it seems, he must tell himself that his faith is actually reasonable and not the blind leap that it is. Perversely, he even goes so far as to accuse those who require evidence for his fantasy to be those laboring under an "illusion." His later arguments really turn out to be nothing more special pleading and the toothless Pascal's Wager.
quote:
Originally posted by markie
But really you do have a point since the picture would be much more complicated than that, as ultimate Deity would delegate creatorship and stewardship to a descending heirarchy of less perfect beings.
Wow. It is amazing to me that you expect to be taken seriously after such blatent conjectural observations as the above. There is no logical reason to believe that a supernatural or supermaterial force(s) exists or had anything to do with this Universe. To believe so is illogical. It is a leap of faith. To go so far as state that such a diety would necessarily delegate responsibilities to a heirarchy of less perfect beings is assinine. It is so clearly a faith statement that the mere fact you present it as an incontrovertible fact, markie, is evidence that you are unable to think clearly on this matter.
quote:
Someone on the list (I forget who) has a little story to his signature about a man so fixated with his dog and how his dog was just like him, that he became essentially canine himself. My hope is that we do not become so caught up in the computer paradigm - yes/no, true/false that we desire little more than what computers or logic can offer us.
Yes, the signature quote is mine. It is actually a warning against anthropomorphism--the dangerous inclination to see only what we wish to see, to project our own desires onto external reality, whether that be a dog or the Universe. It is not without irony that many people see in that quote only what they wish to see and actually try to use it to support their unevidenced position.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/20/2005 10:52:03 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:54:00 [Permalink]
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Oh the Mormon thing, specifically they believe in multiple planets inhabited by humans... each with there own God or superbeing or whatever. Also they believe that God must use physics to interact with the universe, but of course has total mastery of physics.
NOTE: I am not Mormon and this info may be dreadfully inaccurate |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 10:55:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
SInce you agreed in a previous thread that your "supermaterial <insert word here>" was all part of this universe, then you are now just making wild assumptions about how things are.
Part of this universe in part, but also outside the space-time framework. The assumptions may appear wild but I think they are self consistent.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Evidence. You have none. Until you get some, your claims have no merit.
As has been said before, evidence is in the eye of the beholder. That you can even contemplate the merit of a claim is evidence.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 11:13:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, given those definitions, there is really only one category. After all, cognitive sciences are busy figuring out the "mind-meaning" part, entirely through "material-mechanisms."
Cognitive sciences may be correlating brain activity with certain higher thought processes, but you would agree that they are hardly investigating the meanings themselves, which would be more the department of philosophical disciplines.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And, of course, there doesn't appear to be any sort of absolute "spirit-value." It seems clear that "eternal values" are largely dependent upon culture and upbringing. As such, they seem to be just an extension of "mind-meaning," so see above.
I agree that our ideas of eternal values are much dependent on culture and upbringing. Though, not entirely. That is why certain individuals like Jesus stand out, because they were ahead of their time and culture.
In a way 'value' would be an extrapolation of 'meaning', I see your point. But when someone truly groks the 'value' of, say, friendship, he goes beyond the person who merely understands the meaning of friendship. Value has motive power.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 11:22:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
As has been said before, evidence is in the eye of the beholder. That you can even contemplate the merit of a claim is evidence.
So there is evidence that the Hypnotoad is the one and only God.
Im sorry but thought =/= evidence. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 11:41:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
This is called Pascal's Wager. It's been a while since I've seen it.
Hmmm, never heard of it. Goes to show even lesser minds can think alike to great minds at times. I'm not entirely sure what Pascal believed, but to me mere intellectual disbelief is not necessarily terminal. It is spirit cooperation with Deity that counts. Thus a person may be a tentative disbeliever (not hard to understand given misconceptions about God) and yet actually cooperate with God at a deeper spirit level.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
So, you are saying that God or the Hypnotoad (Whom all hail!) has a grand scheme of some sort in mind?
Yes, and hearken thine ear when he ribbits.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
A conjecture is no more than that because it has yet to be tested. If it fails the tests, it becomes no more a stray thought. If it cannot be tested, it will never be more than a mere conjecture; a speculation.
Which is why many people will require the experience of waking up after death in a new body in order to overcome intellectual disbelief. Yet even that won't do it for many. They will merely assume "that's just the way it is" , just as they assumed "that's just the way it is" when confronted with their own self conscious self in this life.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 11:53:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
We are not suggesting that there isnt "more than we can test" Just that to assume there is "more than we can test" is as silly as assuming there isnt.
Well we *must* assume certain things to even function in life.
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
These words I live by,
Assumption is the genesis of surprise and the enemy of understanding.
Not bad, but I would say that 'presumption' can be the enemy of understanding.
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
You assume wild speculation on top of wild speculation.
The universe just might be as wild and alive as the person who speculates.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 12:31:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Cognitive sciences may be correlating brain activity with certain higher thought processes, but you would agree that they are hardly investigating the meanings themselves, which would be more the department of philosophical disciplines.
Hmmm... I would, except philosophy, I think, is unable to tell us why things mean anything to us at all. Sure, philosophers can discuss the meanings of various things, but they can't tell us what makes us different from, say, planaria - for which "meaning" is non-existent.quote:
I agree that our ideas of eternal values are much dependent on culture and upbringing. Though, not entirely. That is why certain individuals like Jesus stand out, because they were ahead of their time and culture.
The fact that some people reject their culture's values is just more evidence that values aren't eternal. And Jesus certainly didn't seem to have a direct line to anything universal. His ideas about tithing were rather barbaric. And I think the Greeks living a few hundred years before him would have had a good laugh about the whole "lake of fire" business.quote:
But when someone truly groks the 'value' of, say, friendship, he goes beyond the person who merely understands the meaning of friendship. Value has motive power.
Yes, but different people value things like friendship differently. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 13:52:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
This is called Pascal's Wager. It's been a while since I've seen it.
Hmmm, never heard of it. Goes to show even lesser minds can think alike to great minds at times. I'm not entirely sure what Pascal believed, but to me mere intellectual disbelief is not necessarily terminal. It is spirit cooperation with Deity that counts. Thus a person may be a tentative disbeliever (not hard to understand given misconceptions about God) and yet actually cooperate with God at a deeper spirit level.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
So, you are saying that God or the Hypnotoad (Whom all hail!) has a grand scheme of some sort in mind?
Yes, and hearken thine ear when he ribbits.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
A conjecture is no more than that because it has yet to be tested. If it fails the tests, it becomes no more a stray thought. If it cannot be tested, it will never be more than a mere conjecture; a speculation.
Which is why many people will require the experience of waking up after death in a new body in order to overcome intellectual disbelief. Yet even that won't do it for many. They will merely assume "that's just the way it is" , just as they assumed "that's just the way it is" when confronted with their own self conscious self in this life.
We have been taking some Olympic-class leaps of faith, here. We have established neither the entity involved, among the many conjectured, nor even the emperical existance of any. Until we can do that, all of this is no more than philosophical masturbation. The Hypnotoad (Blessings and cheap whiskey be upon the Hypnotoad) is the most fun but by his very nature, it is not possible to hear him ribbit.
Mined quote in bold: are you now suggesting reincarnation? Or have I read it out of context?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 14:10:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We have been taking some Olympic-class leaps of faith, here. We have established neither the entity involved, among the many conjectured, nor even the emperical existance of any. Until we can do that, all of this is no more than philosophical masturbation. The Hypnotoad (Blessings and cheap whiskey be upon the Hypnotoad) is the most fun but by his very nature, it is not possible to hear him ribbit.
How DARE you worship the Hypnotoad! The IPU will be quite displeased (pbuhh).
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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