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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2005 : 15:53:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We have been taking some Olympic-class leaps of faith, here. We have established neither the entity involved, among the many conjectured, nor even the emperical existance of any. Until we can do that, all of this is no more than philosophical masturbation. The Hypnotoad (Blessings and cheap whiskey be upon the Hypnotoad) is the most fun but by his very nature, it is not possible to hear him ribbit.
How DARE you worship the Hypnotoad! The IPU will be quite displeased (pbuhh).
Contrary to some scurrilus, popular stories being bandied about by the heathen, I did not jacklight, shoot, and eat the noble IPU. Rather, I missed and he has fallen under the spell of the Hypnotoad (Glory and euphoria to the benevolent Hypnotoad!). The upside is that he no longer is addicted to the Gold of Afganistan. Nor am Iiiiii....*** 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2005 : 19:04:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism?
As opposed to what? Immaterial mechanism?
It is fairly obvious to all skeptics that there is much about the universe that we do not know. Nobody credible would claim otherwise.
Also no credible person would make claims of the nature you, [/b]markie[/b], have made without substantial evidentiary support.
The simple answer of "I don't know" is far superior to groundless speculation.
A corollary of the quote by Jefferson in my sig: Admitting ignorance places you closer to the truth than does speculation without evidence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 06:33:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We have been taking some Olympic-class leaps of faith, here. We have established neither the entity involved, among the many conjectured, nor even the emperical existance of any. Until we can do that, all of this is no more than philosophical masturbation. The Hypnotoad (Blessings and cheap whiskey be upon the Hypnotoad) is the most fun but by his very nature, it is not possible to hear him ribbit.
How DARE you worship the Hypnotoad! The IPU will be quite displeased (pbuhh).
Contrary to some scurrilus, popular stories being bandied about by the heathen, I did not jacklight, shoot, and eat the noble IPU. Rather, I missed and he has fallen under the spell of the Hypnotoad (Glory and euphoria to the benevolent Hypnotoad!). The upside is that he no longer is addicted to the Gold of Afganistan. Nor am Iiiiii....***
Yea and verily, the great and powerful IPU caused your shot to veer away from his blessed horn. He is not entranced by the evil Hypnotoad but merely biding his time. Woe and even more woe to those who turn away from the IPU in favor of the evil Hypnotoad. The true faithful will be given great pointed sticks to smite the enemies of the IPU, who, being naughty in the sight of the IPU, shall snuff it.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:45:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The IPU does not exist.
That does it.
Lessee. Pull pin... yadda yadda yadda ... wildebeasts..... yadda yadda yadda.... Lobbest thou the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch...
1! 2! 5! I mean 3!
(It's only a bloody rabbit)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 13:48:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
We have been taking some Olympic-class leaps of faith, here. We have established neither the entity involved, among the many conjectured, nor even the emperical existance of any. Until we can do that, all of this is no more than philosophical masturbation. The Hypnotoad (Blessings and cheap whiskey be upon the Hypnotoad) is the most fun but by his very nature, it is not possible to hear him ribbit.
How DARE you worship the Hypnotoad! The IPU will be quite displeased (pbuhh).
Contrary to some scurrilus, popular stories being bandied about by the heathen, I did not jacklight, shoot, and eat the noble IPU. Rather, I missed and he has fallen under the spell of the Hypnotoad (Glory and euphoria to the benevolent Hypnotoad!). The upside is that he no longer is addicted to the Gold of Afganistan. Nor am Iiiiii....***
Yea and verily, the great and powerful IPU caused your shot to veer away from his blessed horn. He is not entranced by the evil Hypnotoad but merely biding his time. Woe and even more woe to those who turn away from the IPU in favor of the evil Hypnotoad. The true faithful will be given great pointed sticks to smite the enemies of the IPU, who, being naughty in the sight of the IPU, shall snuff it.
Ah, so that's how his horn got all dinged up. I and the Hypnotoad (All genuflect before the magnifence of the Hypnotoad!) were wondering about that.
Ah well, no matter. As soon as the farrier finishes getting some shoes on him, we're going to hitch up the seeder and plant the north forty.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:21:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Markie
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism? quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
As soon as we extend "reality" to include that which is not verifiable, we eliminate the meaning of the word "reality" as being something different from imagination, delusion or hallucination.
??? It is a reasonable proposition that there is objective reality which is beyond our ability to probe. It is not so outlandish to postulate that some objective reality exists which we do not (subjectively) experience via science or whatever. I don't see how imagination or delusion anything to do with that. To limit the possibilities of universe reality to that which is compatible with our human probing is rather anthropomorphic imo.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:30:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
It is a reasonable proposition that there is objective reality which is beyond our ability to probe. It is not so outlandish to postulate that some objective reality exists which we do not (subjectively) experience via science or whatever. I don't see how imagination or delusion anything to do with that. To limit the possibilities of universe reality to that which is compatible with our human probing is rather anthropomorphic imo.
No, it isn't unreasonable to propose it. It's unreasonable to draw any conclusions or maintain any beliefs that rest upon such unverifiable propositions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/21/2005 20:32:37 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:37:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Markie
Well I ask, is it credible to believe that reality extends only as far as that which is testable by material mechanism? quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
As soon as we extend "reality" to include that which is not verifiable, we eliminate the meaning of the word "reality" as being something different from imagination, delusion or hallucination.
??? It is a reasonable proposition that there is objective reality which is beyond our ability to probe. It is not so outlandish to postulate that some objective reality exists which we do not (subjectively) experience via science or whatever. I don't see how imagination or delusion anything to do with that. To limit the possibilities of universe reality to that which is compatible with our human probing is rather anthropomorphic imo.
Now we're talking String Theory, something that I know only enough about to let someone else explain it.
I'll only say, as I have before, that the the universe is vast, and in a vast universe, there are an equally vast number of possibilities. However, most of those possibilities would prove false. Therefore, we are back to emperical evidence vs. conjecture again.
This is a fortunate situation only for SF writers and astrologers.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/21/2005 20:41:48 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 20:59:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
markie apears to be a man with faith in god who is uncomfortable saying as much. Desperately, it seems, he must tell himself that his faith is actually reasonable and not the blind leap that it is.
Did I press a button?  Faith can be both reasonable and beyond (human) reason.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Perversely, he even goes so far as to accuse those who require evidence for his fantasy to be those laboring under an "illusion."
??? I merely said that it is illusional to think that understanding more of the mechanism of the material universe presents a valid excuse to not believe. For some people like myself, the more they see of the mechanism of the universe, the more it *invites* them to believe.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
There is no logical reason to believe that a supernatural or supermaterial force(s) exists or had anything to do with this Universe. To believe so is illogical.
Can you show me precisely the logical fallacy?
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
It is a leap of faith. To go so far as state that such a diety would necessarily delegate responsibilities to a heirarchy of less perfect beings is assinine. It is so clearly a faith statement that the mere fact you present it as an incontrovertible fact, markie, is evidence that you are unable to think clearly on this matter.
I wasn't trying to convey the idea that God *necessarily* had to do it that way, simply that I believe he did. And I suppose I could premise all my beliefs with "It is my belief that" so that you don't get the impression I am presenting it as incontrovertible fact. Anyways, that God should delegate responsibilities to lower beings it not so bizarre. Afterall a religionist like myself believes he has responsibilities for those in his care and ultimately to a larger cosmos.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 21:17:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
There is no logical reason to believe that a supernatural or supermaterial force(s) exists or had anything to do with this Universe. To believe so is illogical.
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Can you show me precisely the logical fallacy?
Argument to Ignorance.
Or Argument from Incredulity.
Anytime anyone makes a claim, they have a the responsibility to provide evidence to back that claim.
Your insistence that "supermaterial beings" are real and interact in some way with the universe is an unevidenced claim.
Logic does not disprove your claim, it merely doesn't consider your claim to have merit, due to the lack of evidence.
That is why it isn't logical for anyone to accept your claim as having merit.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 21:18:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Did I press a button?
Does the idea that you did make you happy? At any rate, I feel that assessment is more or less accurate.
quote:
Faith can be both reasonable and beyond (human) reason.
This is gobbledygook to me.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Perversely, he even goes so far as to accuse those who require evidence for his fantasy to be those laboring under an "illusion."
??? I merely said that it is illusional to think that understanding more of the mechanism of the material universe presents a valid excuse to not believe. For some people like myself, the more they see of the mechanism of the universe, the more it *invites* them to believe.
The only illusion is in thinking that unbelief requires excuses or justification.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
There is no logical reason to believe that a supernatural or supermaterial force(s) exists or had anything to do with this Universe. To believe so is illogical.
Can you show me precisely the logical fallacy?
Sure. "There is no evidence for supermaterial forces, therefore they exist."
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
It is a leap of faith. To go so far as state that such a diety would necessarily delegate responsibilities to a heirarchy of less perfect beings is assinine. It is so clearly a faith statement that the mere fact you present it as an incontrovertible fact, markie, is evidence that you are unable to think clearly on this matter.
I wasn't trying to convey the idea that God *necessarily* had to do it that way, simply that I believe he did. And I suppose I could premise all my beliefs with "It is my belief that" so that you don't get the impression I am presenting it as incontrovertible fact. Anyways, that God should delegate responsibilities to lower beings it not so bizarre. Afterall a religionist like myself believes he has responsibilities for those in his care and ultimately to a larger cosmos.
It was not clear that those were you personal beliefs. Usually when arguing about the validity of a premise one doesn't simply interject personal opinion into the discussion without being clear on that point. Either way, a deity with subservient minions is not any more reasonable than one which acts alone, or several deities which act in concert, or several deities which act in opposition. In this matter, your opinion is irrelevant.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/21/2005 21:23:24 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 21:25:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The fact that some people reject their culture's values is just more evidence that values aren't eternal.
Right, lots of values and 'morals' are merely cultural. But some are universal imo. The trick would be discerning the two.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And Jesus certainly didn't seem to have a direct line to anything universal. His ideas about tithing were rather barbaric.
Are you talking about his commendation of the widow giving her last penny or whatever to the temple treasury? Jesus as far as I recall didn't dictate anything about tithing. In the case of the widow, he simply commented on her attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And I think the Greeks living a few hundred years before him would have had a good laugh about the whole "lake of fire" business.
I'm not sure about your point, but the Judaism of Jesus' day was very Hellenized. While Jesus was rather scathing on occasion (near the very end), I personally don't believe he taught torment in fire. There was enough of that kind of thinking in those days going around in the more apocalyptic crowd. And methinks the earliest gospel upon which Mark,Matthew and Luke depended on great measure was unfortunately intercepted and modified by such hell-fire apocalyptics.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 21:37:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Which is why many people will require the experience of waking up after death in a new body in order to overcome intellectual disbelief. Yet even that won't do it for many. They will merely assume "that's just the way it is" , just as they assumed "that's just the way it is" when confronted with their own self conscious self in this life. quote:
Originally posted by filthie
Mined quote in bold: are you now suggesting reincarnation? Or have I read it out of context?
Actually I'm referring to a new kind of (resurrection) body, in a new world. (Reincarnation I don't happen to believe in, although there may be some phenomena occuring that might make it seem so.}
But what's a skeptic to do if he wakes up, after death, in a new kind of body? |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2005 : 21:45:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
But what's a skeptic to do if he wakes up, after death, in a new kind of body?
Reach a new tenative conclusion based upon the new evidence. What else?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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