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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2001 : 10:14:46
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Early on, just after 911, i said and believed, that Islam is a civilized religion, a religion of peace. These fundamentist terrorists had perverted the teachings of Islam, to enable themselves to commit these heinous attacks on the many innocent civilians within the WTC, an attack on our country, our freedom, and actually upon the modern civilized world. These animals in no way, represent true Islam. I want to continue to believe, that that is the case. Perhaps it is only reassurance in these uncertain times, that i seek.
But where is that voice of reason and civility, that speaks for the vast majority of Islam? Repeatedly i hear calls for an Islamic Jihad against America and Western civilization at large, from all corners of the Islamic world. I see dancing and rejoicing from within Islam at every event, that causes us pain and death. And anger and rage is readily displayed at every response to bring rightous justice to murders and villians of civility by those, who claim to be of Islam. Outside of the free world, within the body of Islam, where is the condemnation of the perversion of the teachings of Islam, condemnation of the killings of innocents in the name of Islam, or the condemnation of the rejection of a tolerant civilization in the name of Islam? I hear only muted silence. How can this be?
Have i deluded myself? Am i guilty of seeing, only what i wanted to see, at the cost of knowing reality? Perhaps Osama indeed represents the true voice of Islam, and his vision of hate and destruction, is one with the will of Islam. Silence is certainly not a refutation of that distasteful conclusion.
"Pain is the root of knowledge."
-Simone Weil-
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Edited by - NubiWan on 10/08/2001 10:17:59
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/08/2001 : 11:00:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Early on, just after 911, i said and believed, that Islam is a civilized religion, a religion of peace. These fundamentist terrorists had perverted the teachings of Islam, to enable themselves to commit these heinous attacks on the many innocent civilians within the WTC, an attack on our country, our freedom, and actually upon the modern civilized world. These animals in no way, represent true Islam. I want to continue to believe, that that is the case. Perhaps it is only reassurance in these uncertain times, that i seek.
But where is that voice of reason and civility, that speaks for the vast majority of Islam? Repeatedly i hear calls for an Islamic Jihad against America and Western civilization at large, from all corners of the Islamic world. I see dancing and rejoicing from within Islam at every event, that causes us pain and death. And anger and rage is readily displayed at every response to bring rightous justice to murders and villians of civility by those, who claim to be of Islam. Outside of the free world, within the body of Islam, where is the condemnation of the perversion of the teachings of Islam, condemnation of the killings of innocents in the name of Islam, or the condemnation of the rejection of a tolerant civilization in the name of Islam? I hear only muted silence. How can this be?
Have i deluded myself? Am i guilty of seeing, only what i wanted to see, at the cost of knowing reality? Perhaps Osama indeed represents the true voice of Islam, and his vision of hate and destruction, is one with the will of Islam. Silence is certainly not a refutation of that distasteful conclusion.
"Pain is the root of knowledge."
-Simone Weil-
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Edited by - NubiWan on 10/08/2001 10:17:59
I have seen many news broadcasts where local Imams have been interviewed. They all condemn the actions of Osama bin Laden and call what he has done a perversion of Islam. All other Islamic nations, with the exception of Iraq, have come out condemning the terrorist attacks of September 11th.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 11:12:23 [Permalink]
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I have also seen a good number of Islamic leaders concemn the attacks. Besides that I have heard a lot of ordinary everyday moslems condemn them. The popular media does, I think, at times distort events to make things seem more menacing just to get people to watch/read their stuff. It's a free press. They don't have to be fair or accurate.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 11:33:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
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Early on, just after 911, i said and believed, that Islam is a civilized religion, a religion of peace. These fundamentist terrorists had perverted the teachings of Islam, to enable themselves to commit these heinous attacks on the many innocent civilians within the WTC...
But where is that voice of reason and civility, that speaks for the vast majority of Islam?...
Have i deluded myself?
We all, pretty much, have deluded ourselves.
Since Vietnam it has been in fashion to make ourselves out as wicked and anyone who hated us as rightous.
Dealing with Islam it was viewed as a Christianity that just didn't happen to be Christian. We even rewrote our histories of the Crusades to make the Europeans into monsters and the Moslems victimized saints. The knights have become iron-plated gangsters.
Those of us who had to travel in the third world were labled "racists" if we told what we saw.
Now, "The truth will out."
The Koran, which your TV tells you has nothing but nice things to say about everyone, teaches this about you, the Westerner, vs "The True Belivers."
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Verily, the Tree of Hell, Zakkum it is called, will afford the food of the sinful. Like molten brass it will boil in their insides, like the boiling of scalding water. And a voice shall cry out, "Seize him! Drag him into the midst of the Blazing Fire, pour over his head the penalty of Boiling Water! Taste this! Mighty and full of honor you were! And, indeed, it was this you doubted!"
But as to the righteous, they shall be in a place of security, among gardens, among springs. Dressed in finest silk and in rich brocade, they will greet each other. So it shall be! And We will join to them Companions with beautiful, big, lustrous eyes. There can they call for every kind of fruit in security and peace. Nor shall they there taste death, except the first death. And We shall preserve them from the Blazing Fire. As a boon from your Lord, that will be the supreme achievement!
Just in case you think that this might be over something that we did wrong in our foreign policy, this piece was written between 622-632 CE. They have hated us since they formed. Our only "sin" is that we are a different race and a different religion from them.
We honor human rights so they want us boiled in molten brass for doing so.
Don't feel bad that this lot is your ancestral enemy "a man is known by his enemies" You should feel self loathing if these guys were our friends.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 10/08/2001 11:36:49 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 11:56:36 [Permalink]
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All religion is irrational, and the Koran is based on the same nonsense as the Christian and Jewish Bibles and they're all full of violence and absurdities.
Since when is it the fashion to make ourselves out as wicked and others as righteous? Who does that? The New York Times? Right.
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Early on, just after 911, i said and believed, that Islam is a civilized religion, a religion of peace. These fundamentist terrorists had perverted the teachings of Islam, to enable themselves to commit these heinous attacks on the many innocent civilians within the WTC...
But where is that voice of reason and civility, that speaks for the vast majority of Islam?...
Have i deluded myself?
We all, pretty much, have deluded ourselves.
Since Vietnam it has been in fashion to make ourselves out as wicked and anyone who hated us as rightous.
Dealing with Islam it was viewed as a Christianity that just didn't happen to be Christian. We even rewrote our histories of the Crusades to make the Europeans into monsters and the Moslems victimized saints. The knights have become iron-plated gangsters.
Those of us who had to travel in the third world were labled "racists" if we told what we saw.
Now, "The truth will out."
6:49
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org
Edited by - Gorgo on 10/08/2001 11:56:55 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 13:52:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Since when is it the fashion to make ourselves out as wicked and others as righteous?
1968
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Who does that?
You, @tomic, Greg......
Mostly you.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 14:29:53 [Permalink]
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I make us out to be who we are. Sometimes wicked, sometimes not. And the "others" are not any more righteous than we are. You can distort what I say all you want. I am merely being fair and a realist.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 14:44:54 [Permalink]
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You mean, I am in fashion? WOW! I'd better call MOM!
What a load of crap! The "fashion" is the same as it's been for the last billion years. The corporate media and the government fawn all over each other and pat each other on the back until it hurts.
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Since when is it the fashion to make ourselves out as wicked and others as righteous?
1968
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Who does that?
You, @tomic, Greg......
Mostly you.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 14:51:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
The corporate media and the government fawn all over each other and pat each other on the back until it hurts.
Not always but it is interesting that some of the same government officials that bitch about the press whether it's too liberal or reports things it shouldn't, leak information to that same press.
Government uses the press when it can and in all sorts of ways. Ditto for the press. It's laughable when I see these pundits and politicians complain.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 15:11:33 [Permalink]
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Sure, they go after individuals, and they have minor disagreements with policy, but in general, well, look who you see on TV today. Generals, former Secy's and asst. Secy's of State, etc. Do you see Ramsey Clark, Kathy Kelly, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn or Tim Wise talking about foreign or domestic policy?
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The corporate media and the government fawn all over each other and pat each other on the back until it hurts.
Not always but it is interesting that some of the same government officials that bitch about the press whether it's too liberal or reports things it shouldn't, leak information to that same press.
Government uses the press when it can and in all sorts of ways. Ditto for the press. It's laughable when I see these pundits and politicians complain.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 00:30:10 [Permalink]
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Please note, that i did say outside the free world. Am afraid our declared islamic fundamental enemies, will view the moderate muslims of the "western" civilized world as a corrupted form of Islam. Not one so called Islamic nation, will outspokenly stand with us in broad daylight with the nervous exception of Pakistan, who felt the blush of the cross-hairs early on. Oh yes, very quitely and 'under the table,' there are those, who would like us to solve their problem with as little risk as possible for themselves. And again, outside the free world, have heard no "respected voice" for Islam, condem the perversion of Islam by the extremist fundamentalists of terrorism. Outside of the free world, have seen no demostrations of 'morderate muslims' condeming the slaughter of innocents in the name of Islam. I don't search for a voice of patronization on the 'western' media, but a voice within the Islamic world, speaking to, and for, the civilized muslims of Islam. Are there any? Hope there are, please direct me to where i might find them.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 03:42:58 [Permalink]
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I have seen a good number. I have watched and read a good number of news sources and i heard one corresponent in Pakistan describe the protestors there as a vocal minority that don't necessarily hold the views of the majority. Should America be charicterized by the likes of Jerry Falwell and gunmen that shoot doctors that work in abortion clinics? Of course not. They are just high profile people that make a stink.
For the other side of this you might need to look around more because they won't get the same coverage because they are calm, ordinary people that don't make for high ratings.
What I see is the belief that a stereotype is more than that. It's not fair to the majority of moslems and it's not accurate and I don't think it's all that healthy.
Is there some specific individual you need to see come out against terrorism? I have seen so many moslems come out against it that I just don't see where you're coming from.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 05:37:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Do you see Ramsey Clark, Kathy Kelly, Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn or Tim Wise talking about foreign or domestic policy?
No (what a joy!); thank goodness these "America-last intellectuals" don't have any influence on the actions that are being taken or we would be handing the keys to the kingdom to bin Laden and our military forces (the ones that may also save YOUR butt as this progresses, Gorgo) would be on trial for "crimes against humanity".
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 05:57:19 [Permalink]
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Yeah, democracy would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it?
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No (what a joy!); thank goodness these "America-last intellectuals" don't have any influence on the actions that are being taken or we would be handing the keys to the kingdom to bin Laden and our military forces (the ones that may also save YOUR butt as this progresses, Gorgo) would be on trial for "crimes against humanity".
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 08:56:38 [Permalink]
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Yeah, democracy would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it?
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
This neatly ties into Hat Monsters piece about Why do you Yanks put up with them meaning, in that blurbs case, Creationists. Like the rest of us Yanks (I love that word, even though I've never lived in New England. It sounds like a cross between Uncle Sam and Norm Abram) Creationists are guaranteed Freedom of religion. The fact that they want to use their religion to deprive the rest of us of our freedom in no way affects their right to practice it. That right is inalienable.
Freedom of speech is also an inalienable right. In a strange fashion there is no more "American" speech than seditious anti-US blather. In a perverse way detractors of the United States see themselves as defenders of the very Democracy they attack.
Seems to come down to the scenario that these cretins are so self involved in what are their personal "rights" that they ignore that which is their "duty." It is the infantile putting of ones own selfish desires above those of the group…ME, ME, ME.
The above stated opinion is my practicing of my own Freedom of Speech.
These times are bringing out the best in many though. On Sunday, when we finally started fighting back, I had the car radio on. The station was giving a very patriotic point of view. To the point where the woman, who was the commentator, actually challenged an interviewee, who was some pro-Muslim-world waffler. I was shocked when the call letters came on and the station was NPR. Who'd have guessed?
I'm off now to fly to Manhattan. I need to see my children who have both been heavily involved in this tragedy. And I want to see the WTC for myself. Be back next week.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 09:37:44 [Permalink]
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You've made my point for me very well, thank you.
To think that corporate-funded NPR is any more free than any other corporate media, is of course ridiculous, and I fully agree with all that you've said. Those that think superstitious actions like waving flags and bombing farmers will solve problems are not unlike the Creationists.
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This neatly ties into Hat Monsters piece about Why do you Yanks put up with them meaning, in that blurbs case, Creationists. Like the rest of us Yanks (I love that word, even though I've never lived in New England. It sounds like a cross between Uncle Sam and Norm Abram) Creationists are guaranteed Freedom of religion. The fact that they want to use their religion to deprive the rest of us of our freedom in no way affects their right to practice it. That right is inalienable.
Freedom of speech is also an inalienable right. In a strange fashion there is no more "American" speech than seditious anti-US blather. In a perverse way detractors of the United States see themselves as defenders of the very Democracy they attack.
Seems to come down to the scenario that these cretins are so self involved in what are their personal "rights" that they ignore that which is their "duty." It is the infantile putting of ones own selfish desires above those of the group…ME, ME, ME.
The above stated opinion is my practicing of my own Freedom of Speech.
These times are bringing out the best in many though. On Sunday, when we finally started fighting back, I had the car radio on. The station was giving a very patriotic point of view. To the point where the woman, who was the commentator, actually challenged an interviewee, who was some pro-Muslim-world waffler. I was shocked when the call letters came on and the station was NPR. Who'd have guessed?
I'm off now to fly to Manhattan. I need to see my children who have both been heavily involved in this tragedy. And I want to see the WTC for myself. Be back next week.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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