|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2005 : 23:24:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by markie in this thread
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
The universe has a goal of perfection? Can you point us to any evidence to show that there are actually goals possessed by the universe?
The evolution of life to the point where biological entities can contemplate perfection attainment, might be seen as evidence of such a goal. When I do a 'thought experiment' of imagining only a universe of conventionally understood matter-energy laws, it is bizarre beyond belief that we should even exist as we do. Imo, familiarity with the bizarre has given us the illusion that everything is about 'just as we would expect'.
Roll back your "thought experiment" just 8 million years (just one-twentieth of one percent of the age of the universe, or thereabouts), and there is no evidence that any biological entity anywhere could contemplate perfection or any other abstract quality. In other words, why would a God whose goal is universal perfection wait so freakin' long to "create" us, since our existence is - you are asserting - the only evidence we have for there being a "goal" of perfection?
Of course, what may be "bizarre beyond belief" to you may be run-of-the-mill normalcy to others. To assume that the how you see things is the same as everyone else sees them is the height of arrogance.
Back in the 1980s, there was a popular do-it-yourself repair guide for VW beetles. In it, the authors defined the word "carburetor" as "French for 'do not touch.'" Obviously, this was a tongue-in-cheek warning to the uninitiated that carburetor repair and tuning is something best left to the professionals. But it also clearly indicates that the workings of a carburetor, to the average Joe, are likely to be "bizarre beyond belief."
Should we ever take incredulity as evidence for magic? Are carbureted engines endowed with motive power directly from God, or is it the case that most people just don't understand the Venturi effect?
|
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 02:12:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Should we ever take incredulity as evidence for magic? Are carbureted engines endowed with motive power directly from God, or is it the case that most people just don't understand the Venturi effect?
Carbureted engines get their motive power from quite a different entity, I assure you. I'm trying to fine-tune an older but pretty hot, Harley engine even as we speak and getting the power band exactly right with the exhaust system I want is driving me bugshit! I know that I can get it close by blocking the carb out and juggling the jets around -- lengthening the intake and increasing the velocity, and changing the percentage of the fuel mix going in, but how much block? I don't want the carb sticking out like a Republican erection in an orphanage. And I refuse to change those snazzy pipes. I'll change the camshaft and the carb before I do that.
I strive for perfection and I ain't getting' it.
Ah nostalga, the old Complete Idiot's Guide. I might still have one kicking around here, somewhere. The VW bug and van were the only things Hitler ever did that was beneficial to anyone. And the man was stone right about the carb. They were pretty sensitive.
One must use caution when speaking of perfection. It can and has been argued that such is not attainable, and I agree. It must be remembered that even that even super models get zits.
Never the less, when this engine is running as I want it to, and it will run like that, I will blither endlessly about how perfect it is. Others might disagree, but I am a Shovelhead God! Or perhaps quite a different entity.... 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 06/26/2005 02:21:38 |
 |
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 10:02:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
And I refuse to change those snazzy pipes. I'll change the camshaft and the carb before I do that.
I just let the dealer mechanics handle issues like that. My bike is still pretty new, but I assure you that if there is ever any problem with the fuel injection system, a trained mechanic, not I, will be fixing it.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:30:04 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
And I refuse to change those snazzy pipes. I'll change the camshaft and the carb before I do that.
I just let the dealer mechanics handle issues like that. My bike is still pretty new, but I assure you that if there is ever any problem with the fuel injection system, a trained mechanic, not I, will be fixing it.
About the only hassle you might have is a funky injector. Once in a while, you hear of a computer going south, but that's pretty rare.
This current ride of mine, a 1980 Harley Shovelhead, was set up for drag pipes, and I went back to the stock exhaust sans mufflers. Which did horrible things to the tune, as expected. It is way over-piped for the cam and carburation.
To me, part of the fun is getting the tune just right. I've always done my own wrenchin'. But then, the older bikes I ride lack the complicated electronics, and so forth, of today's scooters. Those, I leave alone.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 11:37:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Should we ever take incredulity as evidence for magic?
Assuming that our goal is an honest inquiry after the truth (a big assumption in some cases), we shouldn't ever take incredulity as evidence for magic or anything supernatural.
However human nature being what it is, most of us would probably reach a point where, if the evidence were sufficiently bizzare, we would take it as evidence of the supernatural.
To me, this in itself isn't really such a big deal (if it is not your particular field of expertise). Yes, it usually leads to a mistaken understanding of reality, but if a correct or likely explanation has not yet been worked out then the consequence of this is minimal.
The real problems start when the supernatural explanation becomes so engrained in our minds, that we refuse to consider naturalistic theories that can account for the seemingly bizzare evidence that caused us to consider a supernatural explanation in the first place. |
|
|
|
markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 15:29:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.Roll back your "thought experiment" just 8 million years (just one-twentieth of one percent of the age of the universe, or thereabouts), and there is no evidence that any biological entity anywhere could contemplate perfection or any other abstract quality. In other words, why would a God whose goal is universal perfection wait so freakin' long to "create" us, since our existence is - you are asserting - the only evidence we have for there being a "goal" of perfection?
Hehe, let's just say that imo what we are now is still positively beastly compared to what we shall be. And unlike the normal Christian paradigm where one is instantly transformed into a well nigh perfect being worshipping on clouds of glory, I envision a hard earned but fully enthralling ascent into greater perfection that will unfold for untold billions of years. So a mere billion or so years of evolution up from slime to modern humans is a drop in the bucket.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.Of course, what may be "bizarre beyond belief" to you may be run-of-the-mill normalcy to others. To assume that the how you see things is the same as everyone else sees them is the height of arrogance.
Hmmm, I find myself in awe of many things including the capabilities and giftings of others. For instance I could hardly fix a Harley and I am in near awe of those who could. So quite obviously to myself, the way I see things is notably lacking in many regards.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. But it also clearly indicates that the workings of a carburetor, to the average Joe, are likely to be "bizarre beyond belief."
As mechanically ungifted as I am, I would still only be led to say something like "very impressive" to the workings of the carburetor. Same with a microchip or whatever. But life and consciousness remain (to me anyways) so far beyond all human ingenuity that it remains, well, bizarre and rather unearthly. (And my degree is in biology.)
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. Should we ever take incredulity as evidence for magic? Are carbureted engines endowed with motive power directly from God, or is it the case that most people just don't understand the Venturi effect?
Well I for one don't believe in magic. And 'miracles' are really only application of higher law.
But speaking of 'directly from God', I do believe that life and consciousness are possible because they are sustained in 'real time' by the Spirit of Deity. In other words, they are not inherent in the universe. Heck I even believe that the fundamental force from which most all other physical forces are derived comes streaming 'real time' from the presence of Deity, and without which the universe would disentegrate. Hey, maybe I do believe in magic.... 
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 19:59:07 [Permalink]
|
So, markie, you're definitely of the opinion then that all of the abiogenesis researchers at work today are wasting their time?
And I see another "out" for you, if anybody does success it creating a living cell from scratch: obviously, the "Spirit of the Diety" decided to "invigorate" that cell, too. Man may have put all the little pieces together correctly, but it wouldn't have been alive had it not been for this all-encompassing "Spirit."
On the other hand, if this "Spirit" really does hold everything together, then of course life would be impossible without it, since the basic building blocks of life would "disintegrate" without it. As would the basic building blocks of granite and basalt, so the "Spirit" doesn't distinguish life from non-life, nor does the "Spirit" explain why some things are alive and others aren't. So that would make the "Spirit of the Diety" a non-starter for "de-bizarring" life and consciousness.
As far as carburetors and microchips only being "very impressive," while life is "bizarre," I would suggest you're only making the distinction based upon our current ignorance of the start of life. But, there were almost 100 years separating Darwin's Origin from the start of serious abiogenesis experimentation, and the latter is a much more daunting problem than common descent. After all, we have no fossils to act as clues for this search. Of the earliest earthly replicators, we have exactly zero examples to work from.
Oh, and "higher law" is meaningless as an explanation for 'miracles' unless we've got evidence for both "higher law" and "miracles," and I know of none for either. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 21:27:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
This current ride of mine, a 1980 Harley Shovelhead, was set up for drag pipes, and I went back to the stock exhaust sans mufflers. Which did horrible things to the tune, as expected. It is way over-piped for the cam and carburation.
2003 V-Rod, aftermarket pipes because I didn't like how quiet it was. Installed by the dealer and injectors tuned by the dealer as well.
Sorry for the hijack :)
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 21:27:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Hehe, let's just say that imo what we are now is still positively beastly compared to what we shall be. And unlike the normal Christian paradigm where one is instantly transformed into a well nigh perfect being worshipping on clouds of glory, I envision a hard earned but fully enthralling ascent into greater perfection that will unfold for untold billions of years. So a mere billion or so years of evolution up from slime to modern humans is a drop in the bucket.
[...]
But speaking of 'directly from God', I do believe that life and consciousness are possible because they are sustained in 'real time' by the Spirit of Deity. In other words, they are not inherent in the universe. Heck I even believe that the fundamental force from which most all other physical forces are derived comes streaming 'real time' from the presence of Deity, and without which the universe would disentegrate. Hey, maybe I do believe in magic....
gibberish n.: a generic term for talking that sounds like speech but has no actual meaning
With each comment you add you make it more clear that you simply pull these ideas from your imagination and accept them as facts without applying any critical thinking. You're talking about your own fantasies as if they were something real and tangible that other people might be able to see and understand. And you're propping it up with the apology offered by so many who are unwilling to think, "Because I just believe it, that's why."
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2005 : 21:50:53 [Permalink]
|
GM, remember that in markie's version of logic a premise need only "not contradict known fact" in order to be assigned a value of true.
Which, as I pointed out to him, and he apparently agrees with, means he can assign a value of "true" to any nonsense he likes, regardless of the level of evidentiary support for the premise.
Essentially he is leaving logic behind in favor of personal fantasy. His fantasy does appear harmless at first glance, as long as he isn't trying to pass it off to other people as reality anyway.
Atleast he's not a verlch style fundie.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2005 : 05:27:46 [Permalink]
|
Perfection is an unstable concept.
To reach perfection one must define it, and even then once defined a higher state of perfection is usually obtainable.
Im perfect from the freethrow line 100 for 100.
...but each shot had a slightly different arc and many shots hit the rim.
Im perfect from the freethrow line 100 for 100, and each shot had the same perfect arc and all were "swishes".
...But if the ball is thrown just right the ball will roll back to the shooter each time.
and so on. Perspective is a bitch.
What is perfection of the evolved creature? Could not you find a way to destroy/best that creature once this perfection is defined? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 10:29:01 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
So, markie, you're definitely of the opinion then that all of the abiogenesis researchers at work today are wasting their time?
I personally don't think it is a waste of time or money. The nice thing is that very interesting 'incidental' discoveries are often made while working towards another goal.
Also, the longer abiogenesis research goes on without creating life, the more skeptics might consider expanding their paradigm.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. And I see another "out" for you, if anybody does success it creating a living cell from scratch: obviously, the "Spirit of the Diety" decided to "invigorate" that cell, too. Man may have put all the little pieces together correctly, but it wouldn't have been alive had it not been for this all-encompassing "Spirit."
Right here and now I close the door on that (rather nicely conceived) 'out'. My belief is that, although the Spirit does has to do with the initiation of life, there is another dynamic factor which is involved without which life does not arise.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.: On the other hand, if this "Spirit" really does hold everything together, then of course life would be impossible without it, since the basic building blocks of life would "disintegrate" without it. As would the basic building blocks of granite and basalt, so the "Spirit" doesn't distinguish life from non-life, nor does the "Spirit" explain why some things are alive and others aren't. So that would make the "Spirit of the Diety" a non-starter for "de-bizarring" life and consciousness.
I should have made it clear that the Spirit which sustains life and consciousness is a personal and conscious Spirit, while the primal force which comes streaming to us from the (non-time, non-space) place of absoluteness is not.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.: As far as carburetors and microchips only being "very impressive," while life is "bizarre," I would suggest you're only making the distinction based upon our current ignorance of the start of life. But, there were almost 100 years separating Darwin's Origin from the start of serious abiogenesis experimentation, and the latter is a much more daunting problem than common descent. After all, we have no fossils to act as clues for this search. Of the earliest earthly replicators, we have exactly zero examples to work from.
Yes it is a daunting task. And yes I would grant that the bizarreness I
perceive in life arises primarily from my ignorance of the phenomenon.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:Oh, and "higher law" is meaningless as an explanation for 'miracles' unless we've got evidence for both "higher law" and "miracles," and I know of none for either.
Yet again, evidence is in the eye of the beholder. As long as life and consciousness remain unexplained by the mechanisms we know, 'higher law' cannot be ruled out.
|
|
|
|
markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 10:38:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dude]: GM, remember that in markie's version of logic a premise need only "not contradict known fact" in order to be assigned a value of true.
Not true! I don't assign it a value of objective trueness at all, I merely believe it is true. I know too well the difference between what is objectively true and what is merely believed to be true.
quote:
Originally posted by Dude]: At least he's not a verlch style fundie.
Whew, lucky for me
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 10:44:24 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Also, the longer abiogenesis research goes on without creating life, the more skeptics might consider expanding their paradigm.
Possibly. Of course, the three things needed - a simple metabolism, a simple replicator and a simple cell membrane - have all been created, "from scratch," already. The only thing that hasn't been done is merging them all together.quote:
My belief is that, although the Spirit does has to do with the initiation of life, there is another dynamic factor which is involved without which life does not arise.
Like what?quote:
I should have made it clear that the Spirit which sustains life and consciousness is a personal and conscious Spirit, while the primal force which comes streaming to us from the (non-time, non-space) place of absoluteness is not.
Interesting. What sustains this Spirit which sustains life and consciousness? What sustains this primal force?quote:
Yet again, evidence is in the eye of the beholder. As long as life and consciousness remain unexplained by the mechanisms we know, 'higher law' cannot be ruled out.
Neither can we rule it in based solely upon our ignorance of a process. Ignorance isn't evidence for anything. Otherwise, we could rule in the dark-matter-fairy-poop theory, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 11:00:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf: Perfection is an unstable concept.
To reach perfection one must define it, and even then once defined a higher state of perfection is usually obtainable.
I agree. At our level, what we might call perfection is very relative to what we know.
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf: What is perfection of the evolved creature? Could not you find a way to destroy/best that creature once this perfection is defined?
Probably. We could define perfection as the most complete, beautiful and good harmonious integration of available possibilites. But since the possibilities to an evolving creature are changing, perfection is a moving target.
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 11:10:43 [Permalink]
|
| The terms complete, beautiful and good are all relative to POV, therefor perfect is what you make it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
