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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 06/30/2005 : 04:57:20 [Permalink]
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If we couldnt look outside the box we would still be wiping our asses with leaves.
Just let me know when your flat earth gets back from the center of the universe, kay? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 06:13:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Well what usually happens is that a scientific visionary defines the ballpark boundaries/paradigm and scientists go exploring in that ballpark.
I'd be interested in seeing a single example of this thing which "usually" occurs (according to you).quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
And in both cases, all that is being observed are the effects of something we can't currently directly observe.
???We observe *directly* the phenomenon of life ; life exists...
[Banging head on desk] You, markie, you have posited that we will never be able to recreate the cause of the phenomenon we call 'life'. Therefore, the cause of life, exactly like the cause of strange galactic rotation, is hidden from us, according to you. Both life and galactic rotation are effects of things and/or processes which we cannot directly observe. According to you.quote:
You have demonstrated my point by articulating the view that complexity merely has to be unravelled to get to the bottom of a phenomenon. While it is very true that much will be understood by unravelling the complexity of, say, cellular metabolic pathways, this as you know is not the same thing as the property of being 'alive'. But the complexity lures one into thinking that the real answer to life is hidden somewhere in the jumble of complexity, or as a result of a critical amount of complexity, when it is not (imo). Galaxy rotation is relatively simple so we are led more quickly to finding questions elsewhere, like proposing something as strange as dark matter.
You failed to answer my question. I find complexity to be a contiuum, with simple stuff on one end, and really awesomely complex stuff on the other. You've claimed that some stuff is too complex for us humans to understand.
I want to know where you think the dividing line is between "really f-ing complex but understandable" and "so complex we'll never grok it." You're the one who's positing the existence of such a "wall of comprehension," and I'd like to know upon what you base its presence.
You know, this is remarkably similar to the creationist claim that micro-evolution happens, but macro-evolution doesn't. When asked what prevents small changes from building up into big ones, they usually clam up.quote:
And for that very reason I don't consider my theory to be a scientific theory.
Then why use it to argue against a scientific viewpoint? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 06:37:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by woolytoad:
Bullshit. E.g. There have been many times in physics where physicists thought they were about to know everything to describe what we see then realise they are wrong. Perhaps the most popular example is the 'expansion' from Newtonian mechanics to quantum mechanics. If we are incapable of looking outside the 'ballpark', we'd never have figured it out.
Yes, as I said, occassionally a scientific visionary like an Einstein or Plank will redefine the boundaries of the ballpark. Then the rank and file scientists, having a new paradigm to work within and definite things to look for, go out exploring that new terrain.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 06:48:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Scientists and science isn't capable of looking outside the ballpark, so I certainly don't expect them to.quote:
Originally posted by dude:
..... /sigh
And I thought Storm was stubborn about refusing to let go of nonsenseical claims after repeatededly being shown they are false.
Really, all I'm saying is that scientists look for what they *know* to look for. A scientific visionary who redefines the ballpark gives them some something new to look for, thats all. And BTW, my claims have not been shown to be false.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 06:51:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
If we couldnt look outside the box we would still be wiping our asses with leaves.
Just let me know when your flat earth gets back from the center of the universe, kay?
Actually, it is the skeptical mind that is appearing to insisit on the rather anthropomorphic view that his science and logic are at the centre of the universe.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 07:24:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. Banging head on desk You, markie, you have posited that we will never be able to recreate the cause of the phenomenon we call 'life'. Therefore, the cause of life, exactly like the cause of strange galactic rotation, is hidden from us, according to you. Both life and galactic rotation are effects of things and/or processes which we cannot directly observe. According to you.
Yes, I apologize for my brain bubble. It was late.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. : You failed to answer my question. I find complexity to be a contiuum, with simple stuff on one end, and really awesomely complex stuff on the other. You've claimed that some stuff is too complex for us humans to understand.
I want to know where you think the dividing line is between "really f-ing complex but understandable" and "so complex we'll never grok it." You're the one who's positing the existence of such a "wall of comprehension," and I'd like to know upon what you base its presence.
I'm struggling to remember when I ever said that it is life's complexity that will prevent us from understanding it. It's life's *transcendence* - related to how life is unified in it's working - that shall prevent us from explaining it, not it's complexity per se.
There are continuums in complexity for sure, and I would even say that there might be a complexity threshold for life to exist, but that complexity itself is not responsible for life pe se, imo.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W. Then why use it to argue against a scientific viewpoint?
You used the term 'scientific viewpoint', because scientists can actually tinker around with abiogenesis research. They can't with what I'm proposing. But behind the scientific tinkering is a premise that borders more on metaphysics and philosophy than actual science. And that's where it meets me.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 07:37:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
I'm struggling to remember when I ever said that it is life's complexity that will prevent us from understanding it.
On yet another re-read, I see that I got the wrong impression. I apologize.quote:
It's life's *transcendence* - related to how life is unified in it's working - that shall prevent us from explaining it, not it's complexity per se.
Okay... why will its "transcendence" prevent our understanding?quote:
You used the term 'scientific viewpoint', because scientists can actually tinker around with abiogenesis research. They can't with what I'm proposing. But behind the scientific tinkering is a premise that borders more on metaphysics and philosophy than actual science. And that's where it meets me.
You're proposing a metaphysical "wall" to understanding which doesn't appear to actually contradict anything about the philosophy of science. You seem to be throwing up an arbitrary roadblock on a path which science doesn't even follow. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 10:20:13 [Permalink]
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Science is only capable of uncovering objective reality. It does not deal with subjective opinions. That's why science cannot deal with the meaning of Hamlet, since there is no objective "meaning" behind Hamlet other than the literal.
But claims of a diety are objective claims. They claim such a being exists in external reality. There is no reason why one person could detect the presence of this being and another could not. The only similar cases of this are ones of opinion, where some men find a particular woman attractive and others do not. Markie, your god shares all the traits of a subjective preference or personal delusion not in any way connected to external reality. It is what we would expect if you were clinging to a mythology. That is good evidence that your god is a fiction. All the evidence fits this hypothesis.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/30/2005 10:21:36 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 10:37:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
If we couldnt look outside the box we would still be wiping our asses with leaves.
Just let me know when your flat earth gets back from the center of the universe, kay?
Actually, it is the skeptical mind that is appearing to insisit on the rather anthropomorphic view that his science and logic are at the centre of the universe.
Strange I dont remember saying what if anything is at the center of the Universe, as currently that data is unobtainable. Also science and logic are not tangable and cannot be located anywhere. Logic MIGHT help you determine what if anything you may find at the center of the Universe if there is a center, which I doubt(point of BigBang may be elsewhere). For that matter it may not even be a Uni-. Science is only a method of describing what if anything is actually recorded at the CotU so that it may be used as data for the rest of us.
Reality is..
Science is how we define reality..
Edit: Also I apologise for the flat earth line, I dont get to use it often, , I am in no way suggesting you are a Southern Baptist |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/30/2005 10:41:33 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 11:12:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Really, all I'm saying is that scientists look for what they *know* to look for. A scientific visionary who redefines the ballpark gives them some something new to look for, thats all. And BTW, my claims have not been shown to be false.
Your statement is patently false. Imagination and creative problem solving are an integral part of the scientific method. Your claim that scientists only "know" to look inside some pre-defined box is complete and utter nonsense.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 12:56:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
And BTW, my claims have not been shown to be false.
Do you think they should be conditionally granted "truth" status until they are shown definitively to be false?
Or, is it more reasonable to assign them a truth value based upon the evidence which can be found to support them?
Don't forget the fairy poop.
[That last line will make a kick-ass SFN t-shirt, if I do say so myself.] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 15:38:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
[That last line will make a kick-ass SFN t-shirt, if I do say so myself.]
Yeah, but no one would get it unless they have read some of the threads here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 17:08:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Yeah, but no one would get it unless they have read some of the threads here.
True, but we can still offer it for those who want in on the inside joke. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 20:03:30 [Permalink]
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I have followed this thread with interest, if little comment. It's really a good one and could be an excellent nominee for TotM.
But I must remark upon this statement:
quote:
Really, all I'm saying is that scientists look for what they *know* to look for. A scientific visionary who redefines the ballpark gives them some something new to look for, thats all. And BTW, my claims have not been shown to be false.
Stray thought and serendipity have been the genesis of an uncountable number of scientific discoveries. "What if...?" and "Say, this might lead to that!" are often the beginning of new fields of research.
A man wanted to see the stars and planets, and built a telescope with optics better than before. Another wondered if popular knowledge was correct and debunked 'spontainous generation.' And another named Leonardo actually concieved the helecopter many centuries before we had the capability to build it. He also came up with the ball bearing and the machine gun.
Science, by it's very nature, can never so hide-bound.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 06:46:12 [Permalink]
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For the T-shirts, I think something along the lines of this...
"On the sixth day, the Great Fairy pooped out the earth!" |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Topic Locked
