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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2005 : 07:50:33 [Permalink]
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I'm a tobacco-chewer and not much of a smoker, but I dearly love a good cigar. My son-in-law brought me back a couple of excellent ones from a trip north, and I've been toking on one of them off and on for a couple of days. There's nothing to compare with a glass of whiskey and a really good stogie to get the musings going. So, what I think I'll do, even though modesty should forbid, is put up an old OP of mine. The very brief thread it started can be found here.
This is not a scientific paper and has had a peer review in that a couple of herpetologists have seen it and liked it. It is gleaned entirely from my own observations and studies. Thus, as I wrote it and therefore I own it, I shall post it in it's entirity rather than merely linking. The chances of it being read are a little better...
==================================
A couple of days ago, Dr. Mabuse mentioned that he wanted to ask me about the evolution of these in the chat room. I'd missed that chat, foir various, bullshit reasons, so I'm posting a sort of hit-the-high-spots in it's place. It's far too big a topic for a chatroom, anyway.
So, with no further adue, come visit my world....
Question: “Which came first, the chicken or the egg?”
Answer: “Who cares; pass the Tabasco.....”
A similar and equally idiotic question/statement has been snidely put forth about serpent venoms, and it's rather like the ‘half-wing' straw man blather-from-ignorance we hear from various Creationist groups: “Of what use is venom with no injection system, and vise-versa?”
Answer: “Obviously none, therefore it all had to be created at the same time, proving the Theory of Evolution is false, and ha-ha all over you!”
In this screed, I will pass the Tabasco.
First, what exactly is a venom? What makes an animal ‘hot, ' and how is this any different from a poison. We'll quickly straighten the latter out first: basically, venoms are injected; poisons are ingested.
A venom is any substance produced and used by an animal to subdue prey and/or defend itself. The list of venomous animals is an extensive one and it goes far beyond snakes. There are hot insects and arachnids, as we all know, and even a few mammals such as shrews. A stab from the venomous spurs of a male platypus and it's fellow monotreme, the echidna, can be a quite painful experience. There are even venomous birds. A great many sea creatures are venomous, including but not restricted to jellyfish, anemones, corals, octopi, and some fish such as stingrays, stonefish and the gafftops'l catfish have venomous spines. These incidentally, fit nicely in the skillet, venom not withstanding.
I once met a man who claimed to have been stung by a cone shell, species unknown (the shell that is, not the man). He found it in shallow water, and as it was pretty, he took it to his hotel room and began digging at it with a jack knife; to kill it, one presumes. The gastropod reacted predictably and stabbed him in the finger with one of it's ‘harpoons.' He told me that he has never experienced such pain, before or since.
I can personally attest to the effectiveness of sea wasp and Portuguese man 'o war venoms.
So, considering the minute amounts of venom injected, various sea creatures are the hottest in the world.
But back to the question of the evolution of venoms and their injection systems in serpents. As I have stated elsewhere, venom evolved first, and exactly how it happened can be easily seen in living Colubrid spec |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 07:54:54 [Permalink]
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GeeMack: You certainly don't understand the scientific process.
HYBRID: I most certainly do!
I challenge you on that, HYBRID. If you really know the scientific process, then you should be able to tell us what assumption is the foundation of the philosophy of science.
Also, if you really know the scientific process, then you should understand why we do not accept your contentious statement that space is infinite, just because you say you know some scientist who said it is.
Science is self-correcting thanks to peer review, and the government has no say on what gets published.
Skeptic Friends Network mission statement:
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.
HYBRID, if you really want to understand us, you need to learn more about how we are thinking. I don't want you to read filthy's link to Logical Fallacies in order to indoctrinate you into what you seems to believe is a scientific mindless bot. I want you to read the Logical Fallacies in order to understand why we don't accept any of your assertions and view-points.
We define our life and Universe through two opposing philosophies, and while I, Kil, and a few more understands the chasm between us, I remain doubtful you do. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 07:56:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
What's your point?
That is incredibly easy, and absolutely meaningless, to make unsupported claims as you have. You have yet to offer a shred of evidence for any of the claims you make on the basis that "You aren't out to change anyone's mind." Well, fine. Go start a live journal or something, as the only one who cares about your opinions is you.
This is a place where you are expected to back up your statements with facts. I know you don't like to be told how to think, but baselessly trashing skeptics and their methods without even attempting to engage in any semblance of a reasoned discourse is simply trolling.
You are just annoying. You keep saying I have no proof for my claims, what claims? Other than space is infinite, and none os us will ever know, although it is.I don't have anything to prove to you, or anybody for that matter. If I feel you should be impressed, I will do so, but you sir, are not worth the trouble.
You are right, I should not, even though I don't think I harshly bashed skeptics. THis is just one way of thinking, and mine is another, and there are billions of other ways of thinking. But in the same token, you should respect others as well, and be open minded and don't talk crap about stuff that cannot be proven or disproven and try to say someone is delusonal because you don't like it, and try to build your ego up off of it. How lame is that?
Lessee, you come into an established forum and require the members to conform to your idea of discourse, how egotistical of you. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 07:59:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Well, I keep hoping the other shoe will fall and we will get into the new world order conspiracy that Hybrid has been dancing around. You know, shape shifting alien lizards and such (actually running the show.) Perhaps some alerts about the few people who sometimes meet as the Bilderberg group to set world policy and all of that kind of stuff. I'm not really sure to which version Hybrid subscribes, but I can almost guarantee that he believes we are living under the thumb of one evil new world order conspiracy or another…
I'm putting my money on alien lizards…
I think it might be more of a Freemason conspiracy thing he's leaning towards. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:02:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Just some stray thoughts: I would love to disprove the theory of Evolution. My fortune would be made and my fame in scientific circles would be immense. I would win a Nobel Prize (the committie would humbly bring the award to my door) and a tenured position at any university in the country. Hell, I'd probably be offered the chair in the department of my choice. I'd bore a myraid of audiences to distraction in the lecture halls.
All I'd have to do is find the Devonian Bunny. The Cambrian Croc would do as well.
But hey, that lagomorph, nor any other mammal, didn't exist in the Devonian and there were no reptiles in the Cambrian, and I'm not knowledgable enough to track them through genetics. So, I guess I'm SOL for the Nobel.
Ya see, the greatest prize in science is there for the taking. Many reach for it, but their arms aren't long enough to overcome the overwhelming evidence in the theory's favor.
A scientific theory is not the same as, say, a newsman's theory. All theories start with a conjecture. Then the scientist looks for empirical support for that thought. Should he find enough, the conjecture becomes an hypothesis. At this point, it gets interesting as more evidence, pro and con, is brought forth. If enough peer-reviewed support is garnered, and it takes a lot, the hypothesis finally becomes a theory, and there it remains forever. There are no proofs in science (except in maths and whiskey) because there is always the chance that the theory must change due to new evidence.
I do not believe in the Theory of Evolution. I have no faith in it. I merely accept it as the best explanation for certain biological process' discovered thus far. Find me that Devonian Bunny and verify it, and I will toss the ToE without a second thought.
I don't see that happening soon, regardless of the oratory spouted by it's detractors. Until they come up with something other than wind, the ToE is safe and solid.
You can't, it has already been done by so many people, academics mostly, but I know, you would not accept it anyway. The theory of evolution has been broken done by so many. The info is out there, you just have to look. And I don't mean for 20 minutes, I mean spend some time on it. But then you have to have an open mind, and you will have to sit back and do some serious thinking and ask yourself alot of questions.
Yet more bullshit?
What academics? What are their names and their qualifacations? What are their fields of research? Where have they published in peer-reviewed journals and upon what aspect of the ToE?
I think it's about time you put some substance into your claims. Thus far, you have shown exaclty none.
SO many. Go to google. There are many. Dr. Author David Horn, Dr. Richard Boulay, Michael Cremo Anthropologist, among some others. Finding them is not hard. Bullshit! You need to calm the fuck down! Your saying shit out of supidity and anger or frustration. You need to start respecting me more.
Why should we respect someone who does not provide source cites, tries to shift the burden of proof from the claimant, and is condescending?
You made your bed, now lie in it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:05:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
I am afraid that you are incorrect. I was antagonized first. I was merely asking questions to provoke or try to get a type of thinking to present itself, and I found out that it is not possible. This is an experiment for myself, to see how people can imprison their minds, even in the smallest of situations, by things or information that has turned into dogma.
You first say that it is possible, but that it is not. So we pretend that it isn't, when a lot of things seem wrong.
You were not deliberately antagonized, by anyone. You were asked to provide just merit to your claims. You are the one who has offered that which is in contradiction to the accepted, and therefore the onus rests upon you to prove your claims.
This is the first accepted principle of logic. Logic is perhaps the best measure, we as humans have, intersubjectively, for finding the truth of a statement. Your statements lack an essential part of the logic statement, the premises are not shown to be true, or as close to truth as is possible.
You make statements without support. You've built your view based on a subjective reality, while logic and the scientific method attempt to define the world in as objective terms as possible for us.
I'd suggest visiting http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/papers/knowledgeselectors.html for some info on the selection of knowledge. It's really a rather interesting read.
See, skepticism is really attempting to compare what we think, what is claimed, etc, against what is objectively real.
What the fuck are you talking about? So? I was trying to see how you guys think, and? Who the fuck are any of you, but the same as me, a human being capable of thought. Fuck that website. You people have some fucking nerve. |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:07:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
...You need to calm the fuck down! Your saying shit out of supidity and anger or frustration. You need to start respecting me more.
It appears the one who needs some calming is quoted here.
Many of us would appreciate it if you would present your ideas in a more cogent manner. I, for one, am often at work more than 12 hours a day, and would rather not have to spend the time searching for meaning in your posts (due to the formatting, the grammar, and the content).
Where is this perceived lack of respect? You started a topic here with several assertions and one question ("...what makes a person a skeptic?"). Your question was answered. Your assertions were questioned, which ought to be expected, since we are a bunch of skeptics. As the pages go on, you have refused to conform to any standard of logic, evidence, or presentation. When somebody points this out to you, you get defensive and claim we are not respecting you. We are giving you the highest respect we can give: we are actively considering what you say; however, it is not entirely clear to many of us what that is.
I feel I should explain my last sentence. We ask questions and demand proof in order to more fully understand. We have been doing just that to you since page 1. I hope you do not feel that our attempt to understand you is disrespectful, but I fear that is the case.
If you think that proof is always going to prop itself on a lab table for exact examination everytime, your kidding yourself, really?I don't have to go any further than that! |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:12:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
What academics? What are their names and their qualifacations? What are their fields of research? Where have they published in peer-reviewed journals and upon what aspect of the ToE?
I think it's about time you put some substance into your claims. Thus far, you have shown exaclty none.
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
SO many. Go to google. There are many. Dr. Author David Horn, Dr. Richard Boulay, Michael Cremo Anthropologist, among some others. Finding them is not hard.
Googling for Dr. Author David Horn you'll find... "Your search - 'Dr. Author David Horn' - did not match any documents."
A Google search for Dr. Richard Boulay brings two hits. Learn a little about Dr. Richard Boulay, specializing in Gynecological Oncology, Obstetrics & Gynecology. His name also appears in a list with 1,145 other Allentown, Pennsylvania doctors at the bottom of this page. No mention of any connection to any research on evolution.
And from Googling for Michael Cremo, Anthropologist, some comments regarding Michael Cremo and his book, Forbidden Archeology...quote:
** "Anthropologist Richard Leakey says Cremo's ideas are nonsense which only stupid people can take seriously."
** "American anthropologist Jonathan Marks says Michael Cremo's stories are charming fictions for those who like the so-called 'popular anthropology for ignoramus.': 'It's a real collection of absurd figments.'"
** "The atmosphere of Cremo's lectures is reminiscent of once-popular speeches about UFOs."
** "In common with other reviewers, Wodak and Oldroyd drew a connection between Forbidden Archeology and the work of Christian creationists. 'As is well known,' they noted (p. 192), 'Creationists try to show that humans are of recent origin, and that empirical investigations accord with human history as recorded in the Old Testament. Forbidden Archeology (FA) offers a brand of Creationism based on something quite different, namely ancient Vedic beliefs.'"
As has been stated before, it is your responsibility to back up the claims you make, not ours. If you believe the theory of evolution, in its present form, to be without merit, state your reasoning, your evidence, and your sources. Your suggestion that we should research the work of these "experts" is useless, especially considering one of your three "experts" doesn't exist, one is an OBGyn with no apparent connection to evolution theory, and one is considered by at least some other reputable members of the scientific community to have less than sound credibility.
So, you named three names. The question was, "What academics? What are their names and their qualifications? What are their fields of research? Where have they published in peer-reviewed journals and upon what aspect of the ToE?" Any real answers to these questions? Or can we expect more ranting and raving about how us skeptics have a problem because we don't believe in your fantasy?
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:16:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The real disconnect between HYBRID and the rest of the posters here is that of philosophy.
While HYBRID is a post-modernist, possibly New Age, SFN-members are mostly scientific-minded. It is obviously the source of the frustration. I wonder if the chasm can be bridged.
New Age? You don't know me, or what I think, you assume, and therefore you make an ass out of u! Quit with the psycho bable, oh hybrid, he's so frustrated, he so angry, he does not understand science. Well then, since you seem to an arrogant asshole, go fuck yourself with an elephant dick. I hate to go this route, but we could never have any type of real convo, when you critize everything, and you have no, 0 idea where I am comming from. And that to me is an asshole. YOu have no idea what is in my head! But you thihnk you do, and it is kind of funny. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:18:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you think that proof is always going to prop itself on a lab table for exact examination everytime, your kidding yourself, really?I don't have to go any further than that!
You need to go much farther than that. The entire, natural world is a lab table.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/13/2005 08:27:06 |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:20:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawks
quote:
Dr. Mabuse wrote:
I wonder if the chasm can be bridged.
You reckon? HYBRIDs reality is created (in his own words) in his own mind. This is not exactly what science says. Science (sometimes) requires repeatabily. I don't think we can repeat what goes on in HYBRIDs mind.
HYBRID, you've stated in the last few posts that you demand respect and also that you don't care what anyone thinks of you. Which is it?
Come on now, lets get it right einstein! Respect is something required as one human to the next. Everybody has an opinion that should be respected. Now I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks, but don't jump on me calling me this that and the other trying to build yourself off of TRYING to break me and my thoughts down, that is damn near fascist! Respect is something you give when you get it in return, no matter what your opinion is! |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:24:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
HYBRID: If you think you have been antagonised, please indicate the instances. Please point them out, preferably by indicating what post on what page (for example, post #8 on page #1, second paragraph. Perhaps also a quote of the offending paragraph).
Moderator message ends.
When I pointed out to him that no one has attacked him, only his arguments, hybrid responded "Its not a verbal bash as much as intellectual, psychological, or just plain smart-allecy." So I don't think he has a problem with what people have been saying so much as their "tone." Or at least intially. Patience on all sides has been steadily decreasing.
I only posted this because the formatting of Hybrid's posts make them difficult to slog through.
It is your own ego's that makes you un able to understand. It is because you don't want to. You want to make me seem like this or that because I don't conform. But guess what, I won't conform. If you guys would stop attacking me, and questioning, ME in general, then maybe we can get somewhere.
What proof was presented to me? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:25:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
New Age? You don't know me, or what I think, you assume, and therefore you make an ass out of u! Quit with the psycho bable, oh hybrid, he's so frustrated, he so angry, he does not understand science. Well then, since you seem to an arrogant asshole, go fuck yourself with an elephant dick. I hate to go this route, but we could never have any type of real convo, when you critize everything, and you have no, 0 idea where I am comming from. And that to me is an asshole. YOu have no idea what is in my head! But you thihnk you do, and it is kind of funny.
I was rather hoping that it wouldn't come to this, but obviously it has.
Is this your real purpose here, HYBRID? To put down others in order to cover your own ignorance? Are you one of those unbalenced people who are so insecure that you must exault yourself at any cost?
Thus far, you have added nothing of any substance to the discussion, not even interesting vituperation. A pity, that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:27:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
GeeMack: You certainly don't understand the scientific process.
HYBRID: I most certainly do!
I challenge you on that, HYBRID. If you really know the scientific process, then you should be able to tell us what assumption is the foundation of the philosophy of science.
Also, if you really know the scientific process, then you should understand why we do not accept your contentious statement that space is infinite, just because you say you know some scientist who said it is.
Science is self-correcting thanks to peer review, and the government has no say on what gets published.
Skeptic Friends Network mission statement:
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.
HYBRID, if you really want to understand us, you need to learn more about how we are thinking. I don't want you to read filthy's link to Logical Fallacies in order to indoctrinate you into what you seems to believe is a scientific mindless bot. I want you to read the Logical Fallacies in order to understand why we don't accept any of your assertions and view-points.
We define our life and Universe through two opposing philosophies, and while I, Kil, and a few more understands the chasm between us, I remain doubtful you do.
I bet you think I give a fuck right? As long as IU university says I know how the scientific process works, that is all that matters. Who gives a fuck what any of you think?YOu don't have to accept anything, but don't jump on me for my opinions, because believe it or not, that is just what a large portion of this conversation is, opinion. |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 08:29:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Just some stray thoughts: I would love to disprove the theory of Evolution. My fortune would be made and my fame in scientific circles would be immense. I would win a Nobel Prize (the committie would humbly bring the award to my door) and a tenured position at any university in the country. Hell, I'd probably be offered the chair in the department of my choice. I'd bore a myraid of audiences to distraction in the lecture halls.
All I'd have to do is find the Devonian Bunny. The Cambrian Croc would do as well.
But hey, that lagomorph, nor any other mammal, didn't exist in the Devonian and there were no reptiles in the Cambrian, and I'm not knowledgable enough to track them through genetics. So, I guess I'm SOL for the Nobel.
Ya see, the greatest prize in science is there for the taking. Many reach for it, but their arms aren't long enough to overcome the overwhelming evidence in the theory's favor.
A scientific theory is not the same as, say, a newsman's theory. All theories start with a conjecture. Then the scientist looks for empirical support for that thought. Should he find enough, the conjecture becomes an hypothesis. At this point, it gets interesting as more evidence, pro and con, is brought forth. If enough peer-reviewed support is garnered, and it takes a lot, the hypothesis finally becomes a theory, and there it remains forever. There are no proofs in science (except in maths and whiskey) because there is always the chance that the theory must change due to new evidence.
I do not believe in the Theory of Evolution. I have no faith in it. I merely accept it as the best explanation for certain biological process' discovered thus far. Find me that Devonian Bunny and verify it, and I will toss the ToE without a second thought.
I don't see that happening soon, regardless of the oratory spouted by it's detractors. Until they come up with something other than wind, the ToE is safe and solid.
You can't, it has already been done by so many people, academics mostly, but I know, you would not accept it anyway. The theory of evolution has been broken done by so many. The info is out there, you just have to look. And I don't mean for 20 minutes, I mean spend some time on it. But then you have to have an open mind, and you will have to sit back and do some serious thinking and ask yourself alot of questions.
Yet more bullshit?
What academics? What are their names and their qualifacations? What are their fields of research? Where have they published in peer-reviewed journals and upon what aspect of the ToE?
I think it's about time you put some substance into your claims. Thus far, you have shown exaclty none.
SO many. Go to google. There are many. Dr. Author David Horn, Dr. Richard Boulay, Michael Cremo Anthropologist, among some others. Finding them is not hard. Bullshit! You need to calm the fuck down! Your saying shit out of supidity and anger or frustration. You need to start respecting me more.
Why should we respect someone who does not provide source cites, tries to shift the burden of proof from the claimant, and is condescending?
You made your bed, now lie in it.
My bed is made, fuck you! |
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