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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:13:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
prohibiting Brazil from selling Brazilian made AIDS medicines to Africa and things like that
That is not the US, that is international copyright and patent laws. Your country, not the US, is responsible for that, because you signed into the treaties and agreements that make those laws enforcable with regard to exports.
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Yeah, and what would North America look like if the French haden't sent badly needed reinforcments after you declared an independent nation and decided to throw out the Brits.
Which has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand. Even the jackasses with the "freedom fries" don't hate the French with the vehemency that much of the world seems to despise the US.
The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No.
But we get some assholes in charge (for which I'll say that the rest of the world has some responsibility, because you all hate us so much, and your hate engenders some hostility in return, thereby reducing the chance that a person who would cooperate with the international community will be elected) and nobody ever even mentions the good things we do. The focus is 100% on the negative.
And, quite honestly, when I see people in other countries saying how terrible the US is, and that we "deserve" shit like 9/11, and other such crap... my initial reaction is "Well, fuck you to." It reduces the chance that people, even people on the left like myself, will give a fuck about you or your problems in the future.
Blanket statements like "USA sucks" (or whatever) don't do anything except feed the assholes here who already don't care about the rest of teh world, and they make it more likely that those of us who do care, may start to not.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:15:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No.
Does any other nation makes as much money as US (and therefore, have as many resources to help)? No. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:28:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Does any other nation makes as much money as US (and therefore, have as many resources to help)? No.
But we are not obligated, by anything other than our own sense of duty, to give anyone else a damn thing.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:30:59 [Permalink]
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Ha actually as a % of GDP, we do not do nearly as much as other countries.
Basically we donate 1$ more than everybody else and say "Hey we rock", ignoring the fact that our economy is so much more massive that the others. Reality Bites |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Does any other nation makes as much money as US (and therefore, have as many resources to help)? No.
But we are not obligated, by anything other than our own sense of duty, to give anyone else a damn thing.
Certainly not. But that doesn't mean other countries wouldn't, if they had the conditions. Excluding, of course, those too busy with blowing themselves up. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:34:02 [Permalink]
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| Must not have seen my link before posting... Denmark, Great hookers and ten times the foreign aid. More Current Info, US at #22 |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/25/2005 13:36:35 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 15:52:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No.
Not by absolute numbers thanks to the size of your country.
In 1967 the Swedish government committed to increase the foreign aid from 0,7% of GNP to 1,0%. The value has fluctuated over the years, and I'm unsure about the difference between GNP and GDP. This link provided by BigPapaSmurf puts Sweden at fourth place.
Where's the USA?
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But we get some assholes in charge (for which I'll say that the rest of the world has some responsibility, because you all hate us so much, and your hate engenders some hostility in return, thereby reducing the chance that a person who would cooperate with the international community will be elected) and nobody ever even mentions the good things we do. The focus is 100% on the negative.
So it's not really that much your own fault, is that what you're trying to say? The rest of the world should take part of the blame?
Bill Clinton was the most liked US president in my country these last 20 years. He did some great work internationally (Perhaps excluding Iraq, but that was a mess inherited from Bush Sr.) it's just that the republican owned media failed to report about that, I guess.
How much blame do you put on our (the rest of the world's) shoulders, and how much of it will you own yourself?
All I see is your failure to communicate to your fellow citizens the need for a more reasonable and compassionate government than what you currently have.
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It reduces the chance that people, even people on the left like myself, will give a fuck about you or your problems in the future.
If only the US government had indeed given the fuck about the rest of the world, there wouldn't be this level of hostility... It's the greed. Enron, Halliburton, invading Iraq for oil.
Actually, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, I really appreciated (hell, I even applauded) that USA stepped up and became the leading voice of the international community that told the Arabic countries to play nice. And when Saddam didn't complied, led UN supported troops into Iraq.
When I write UN supported I do not mean un-supported as in USA wasn't supported (like GW Bush's invasion), but had the support of the United Nations, and consequently by UN proxy, the support of the rest of the world.
The USA hasn't done only bad things, but great things as well. It's just that right now, your government is steering it straight to hell, pissing off too many in the process. And while that is happening, it's hard to focus on the good things. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 16:08:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Must not have seen my link before posting... Denmark, Great hookers and ten times the foreign aid. More Current Info, US at #22
Dude, have a peek the chart below the one pointed to by BigPapaSmurf. If USA has 450 million citizens, then Sweden gives 7 times more per capita.
Hell, why not see if the aid sent does any good?
This is the aid quality-adjusted figures.
(Edit: Maybe I should alert you to the fact that in that latest link, Sweden is penalized for being of the few countries not giving any tax-reductions for any kind for donations by private citizens nor companies) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/25/2005 16:13:35 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 22:42:39 [Permalink]
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So it's not really that much your own fault, is that what you're trying to say? The rest of the world should take part of the blame?
No. Simply that your hostility contributes. And yes, when so many are openly hostile to the US, one of the consequences is that the people here are going to be less likely to vote in a President who is openly and obviously friendly to people who openly demonstrate hatred of our country. Wouldn't be any different in your home, if the alot of people in the US were seen to be openly hatefull towards Sweden (hate filled commentary in the news, harsh criticism of your policy, openly saying that you were worse than Nazis... etc), do you think that a political candidate who was seen as open and friendly with the US would lose votes? I bet they would.
How significant that influence is? Hard to say. But when our elections are as down to the freakin wire as the last 2 have been.... Don't be suprised when another republican president gets elected in 2008.
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All I see is your failure to communicate to your fellow citizens the need for a more reasonable and compassionate government than what you currently have.
It may have been mentioned here on these boards, but just in case I'll mention it again. The voting block that we are working against, those that vehemently support right-wing religious extremists, are so far different from us that there is no possibility of actually communicating with them. Its like talking to a brick wall. Just think of verlch for an idea of what I mean.
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If only the US government had indeed given the fuck about the rest of the world, there wouldn't be this level of hostility... It's the greed. Enron, Halliburton, invading Iraq for oil.
I'll leave you to re-examine that statement for flaws in logic and errors in fact. There are many, and I'm sure you can see them if you sit back and look.
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The USA hasn't done only bad things, but great things as well. It's just that right now, your government is steering it straight to hell, pissing off too many in the process. And while that is happening, it's hard to focus on the good things.
Alot of us agree. But, as I have been trying to say (and will try once more), the job of dealing with the kooks who have revived religious and nationalist extremism in the US is made more difficult by the level of hostility and outright hate that is poured on us from other countries. It is justification, in the minds of our hyper-nationalists, that they are right.
As I have said, it offends even us on the left when people are so openly hatefull of the US.
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Dude, have a peek the chart below the one pointed to by BigPapaSmurf. If USA has 450 million citizens, then Sweden gives 7 times more per capita.
What that chart shows is that only 5 of the worlds richest 22 nations meets the agreed upon % of GNP given to foreign aid.
That means that 17/22 of the richest nations are greedy, why single out the US?
And somebody tell BPS to check that list again, The us is 22nd on it BECAUSE the list is alphabetized! NOT because we have the lowest %GNP given to foriegn aid. So, we aren;t even the greediest nation on the list.... fuckin A.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 04:21:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
[It may have been mentioned here on these boards, but just in case I'll mention it again. The voting block that we are working against, those that vehemently support right-wing religious extremists, are so far different from us that there is no possibility of actually communicating with them. Its like talking to a brick wall. Just think of verlch for an idea of what I mean.
I recognise that 1/4 of your country is to be considered a lost cause. Still, you can address the half that doesn't bother to get their sorry ass to the voting station. The idea of a democracy rests on people actually voting.
quote:
quote:
Dude, have a peek the chart below the one pointed to by BigPapaSmurf. If USA has 450 million citizens, then Sweden gives 7 times more per capita.
What that chart shows is that only 5 of the worlds richest 22 nations meets the agreed upon % of GNP given to foreign aid.
For starters, that chart shows that many countries give lip service to foreign aid, but fails to deliver.
While USA indeed is the country giving most measured in absolute dollar, USA is so much larger than any other competing country.
In the case of USA I calculated about $43 per capita. In Sweden it's $300 per capita. So relatively, the US isn't as generous as you would like to have us believe.
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That means that 17/22 of the richest nations are greedy, why single out the US?
Because arrogant Americans like to blow their own horn. Not unlike the quote below, where you chose to single out the US as the greatest nation.
I'm not saying that all Americans are arrogant, far from it. It's just that they are the ones that tend to stick out of the crowd.
You wrote: quote:
The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No.
You do so by the power of the size of your country. (how many times do I need to repeat that?)
Scroll down to the chart labelled: "Net ODA in 2004 as US dollar amounts"
The three European nations France, Germany, and Great Britain each gives slightly less than half as much as the US, but they all have roughly 1/10th of the population. Together they have less than half the population of the US with good margin, yet easily give more aid than the US.
quote:
And somebody tell BPS to check that list again, The us is 22nd on it BECAUSE the list is alphabetized! NOT because we have the lowest %GNP given to foriegn aid. So, we aren;t even the greediest nation on the list.... fuckin A.
That's a red herring. And one that is so obvious I'm surprised you even bothered to make it.
Follow that link again, scroll down to the third chart labelled "Net ODA in 2004 as percent of GNI".
Read it and weep.
USA beats Italy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 05:27:26 [Permalink]
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Sorry 21st place, I think japan was slightly under us... oops.
% of GDP is the globally recognised standard of giving, and the fact is we have never even come close to half of what we claimed we were going to give (more than once)
Oh and I have a hard time feeling bad about my US brethren getting picked on verbally when I have not heard one thing from any of them( media, politicians, locals and my aquaintencenes) about the fact the 30+ % of many African populations have AIDS, and thats not even the number one infectious killer. When our life expectancy drops below double what Mozambique's is, let me know.
Hell, im Anti-Human but the hypocracy drives me nuts. Oh and the US isnt the only problem country, just the biggest, there happy.
Edit2: I have been lied to my whole life about how great my country is and have to listen to the unknowing repeat these lies over and over extorting our false virtues to all the world. As you might imagine its just as frustrarting to those who actually know the truth in those places.
Yes, I am pissed about Japanese revisionist history as well but I dont live there and dont get their influx of info. If I did live there I would be mad as hell about that and the rampant racism among other things. And If I lived in Denmark Id be pissed about the stupid crap they have done for the wrong reasons. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/26/2005 07:12:05 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:29:34 [Permalink]
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I recognise that 1/4 of your country is to be considered a lost cause. Still, you can address the half that doesn't bother to get their sorry ass to the voting station. The idea of a democracy rests on people actually voting.
If you have any suggestions.
The two big parties here will come to your house and drive you to the polls, if you just call and ask. I couldn't even guess at the reason why so many don't bother to vote.
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Because arrogant Americans like to blow their own horn. Not unlike the quote below, where you chose to single out the US as the greatest nation.
I'm not saying that all Americans are arrogant, far from it. It's just that they are the ones that tend to stick out of the crowd.
That fails to have any basis in rational thinking. Some Americans are arrogant, therfore you hate America? Guess you hate France, India, Japan, Germany, UK, Spain, and... well, every other country in the world as well.
quote:
quote:
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And somebody tell BPS to check that list again, The us is 22nd on it BECAUSE the list is alphabetized! NOT because we have the lowest %GNP given to foriegn aid. So, we aren;t even the greediest nation on the list.... fuckin A.
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That's a red herring. And one that is so obvious I'm surprised you even bothered to make it.
A statement of fact isn't a red herring, unless it is not relevent to the topic. BPS indicated that the US was #22 on that list, with the implication that the US was last. Well, on the list linked to, the US was #22 because the list is in alphabetical order, not for any other reason.
quote:
You do so by the power of the size of your country. (how many times do I need to repeat that?)
Scroll down to the chart labelled: "Net ODA in 2004 as US dollar amounts"
The three European nations France, Germany, and Great Britain each gives slightly less than half as much as the US, but they all have roughly 1/10th of the population. Together they have less than half the population of the US with good margin, yet easily give more aid than the US.
So?
If the US gave a full 2% of our GNP in aid, it wouldn't stop anyone from hating us, would it? Besides, so many voters here in the US are fed up with the anti-American sentiment that foreign aid is unstable political ground these days. Most politicians are not going to make it an issue. Blame the haters for that.
I don't see any correlation between the two (foriegn aid and anti-American sentiment). I merely pointed out, initially, that the US gives away alot of money and it (the giving away) does little or nothing to engender good will.
There are other aspects of US aid that aren't measured in a strict monetary way, either. For example, the people we send around the world (all volunteers) when some catastrophe strikes. The expense of evicting Iraq from Kuwait in 1990 was mainly a US expense, yes, other countries chipped in, but the large share of that expense was paid (without complaint) by us. And so on.
But obviously nothing I say here is going to convince you to not hate us, or to even think past the emotional response to the current administration's policies.
So try this. Make a list. A very specific list of the reasons you dislike the US. Don't even post it here, just make it. Then go through it and analyze each of the reasons. See if they really do hold up to a rational examination.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:55:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No.
Not by absolute numbers thanks to the size of your country.
In 1967 the Swedish government committed to increase the foreign aid from 0,7% of GNP to 1,0%. The value has fluctuated over the years, and I'm unsure about the difference between GNP and GDP. This link provided by BigPapaSmurf puts Sweden at fourth place.
Where's the USA?
GDP = Market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period of time. (Usually one fiscal year)
GNP = Market value of all final goods and services produced by a nations citizens wherever they may be during a given period of time. (Usually one fiscal year.)
Ex. A Canadian citizen works in the US. He is included in the US's GDP, but not the GNP. Likewise He is included in Canada's GNP but not in their GDP.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 07/26/2005 11:02:28 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:08:05 [Permalink]
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| I never said or implied last, it just happened to be the lowest on that list, however as I pointed out rising to 21st isnt that impressive an arguement. Also I explained why we americans are targeted in this manner, because everybody else doesnt go around saying hey look how great we are, we are so much greater than thou. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 14:40:54 [Permalink]
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Also I explained why we americans are targeted in this manner, because everybody else doesnt go around saying hey look how great we are, we are so much greater than thou.
As a person who has spent a fair number of years living in other countries, I'll have to say you are wrong.
People around the world have pride in their nations, and they think that their country is the best one, whichever one it might be.
Its a ridiculous claim to say that Americans are the only ones to do it, or that we even do it more than others.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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