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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2005 : 14:25:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
As a childless wife, I have absolutely no trouble with paying taxes for schools and libraries. When I picture being old and frail, I want educated people taking care of me, not a bunch of mouth-breathing religionists who think that I have health problems because I haven't been praying enough.
LOL. Same here I want educated, competent people taking care of me when I'm older. My wife and I made a conscious decision to not have children. 20+ years later, nearly 50, I do not regret that decision.
emphasis added |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 15:55:45 [Permalink]
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moakley wrote: My wife and I made a conscious decision to not have children. 20+ years later, nearly 50, I do not regret that decision.
I have 4 friends in their twenties who have inquired with doctors about getting sterilized, (one who went to three different doctors) and all were told the same thing: it would be unethical to perform such an operation on a young, unmarried person, because you might change your mind. This drives me nuts because first of all, some forms of sterilization (at least for men) are reversable, and second of all, isn't it just as bad, if not worse, to risk having a kid when you have no desire whatsoever to raise that kid? I do think that our society in general has its priorities screwed up on this issue. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 18:01:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox...
... because first of all, some forms of sterilization (at least for men) are reversable, and second of all, isn't it just as bad, if not worse, to risk having a kid when you have no desire whatsoever to raise that kid? I do think that our society in general has its priorities screwed up on this issue.
I agree, it does seem like strange priorities. It sure seems acceptable for someone in their twenties to decide they do want to have children. And acting on that decision conceivably affects nearly every single other decision one might make for the next 20 years... or more. I've known several people who didn't want to have kids. Some of them made up their minds on the issue when they were in their twenties. They weren't being irresponsible or impulsive in making that choice.
Also, it probably takes several weeks between setting an appointment for the necessary surgery and actually getting the job done. It's likely that some would have second thoughts during that time and cancel. But if a legal adult has a few weeks to reconsider sterilization, and still decides to go through with it, there shouldn't be any social or "moral" impediments.
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 19:41:05 [Permalink]
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Some employers give time of to employees when a death in the family occurs, mother,father,children, usually paid. So should the person who has no family get three days off paid everytime a coworker looses a family member, just to keep things even.
There are a multitude of reasons why someone could miss work, children being one of them. Do you get paid for working these extra hours while covering for someone who is off? If yes then what's the problem.
As a parent myself, who can count on one hand how many days off I've had in 14 years, no hollidays nothing. If you are looking for sympathy you can find it in the dictionary somewhere between shit and syphilis.
This may sound harsh but I was raised with a very strong work ethic, and am just happy I have a job, and will do what I have to to keep that job.
This seems to be the way today, a selfish society, everybody's worried about what the next guy is getting, wondering how they are getting fucked. If you don't like the policy the company you work for implements, fucking quit then. Today the workforce is far too competitive to be whining, there will be someone else more than happy to have your job and not whine about having to work a few extra hours here and there. It may not be right or always fair but that's life. |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 20:30:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
This mentality in American culture that only parents (and not society, too, to some degree) are responsible for the welfare of future generations is just bizarre to me.
I work, I pay taxes.
Why do you think I should accept any further responsibility for the children of the breeders?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 00:28:33 [Permalink]
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Why do you think I should accept any further responsibility for the children of the breeders?
For the same reason you pay taxes.
But seriously, any monetary advantage that parents supposedly have in the workplace is lost because they spend more than that amount on their kids. And the idea of such an advantage is bullshit anyway. Fathers might get preferential treatment, but mothers by and large get screwed. Just ask my friend who says she's terrified that if she gets pregnant she'll have a much more difficult time getting tenure. All her female friends made sure to birth their kids before landing positions as professors. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/31/2005 00:29:51 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 10:09:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the same reason you pay taxes.
I don't even like children. I have none of my own. I don't intend to spawn any. If my contribution through taxes isn't enough to satisfy the breeding population, then they can kiss my ass.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 10:48:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
But seriously, any monetary advantage that parents supposedly have in the workplace is lost because they spend more than that amount on their kids. And the idea of such an advantage is bullshit anyway.
I don't totally disagree with your point marfknox, but consider the following modification of your argument.
But seriously, any monetary advantage that vintage sports car owners supposedly have in the workplace is lost because they spend more than that amount on their cars. And the idea of such an advantage is bullshit anyway. Obviously this is not a valid argument for special benefits for sports car owners in the workplace. Yes, kids are a special case society as a whole has, or should have, an interest in raising productive well adjusted children, but the 'lack of monetary advantage' argument isn't really valid. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 11:42:19 [Permalink]
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| I second the dude 100% |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 14:05:08 [Permalink]
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To dv82matt,
By the sports car analogy are you trying to say that having children is a luxury? If so, that's a dangerous line of thinking to trudge down, as it leads to the contention that poor people shouldn't have children.
I think my lack of monetary advantage argument is perfectly sound - can anyone demonstrate to me how people in our society with children are financially more sucessful than childless people because of advantages they get in the workplace? If someone proves that to me, I'll have to change my opinion.
There is no huge, far-reaching social advantage that people with children have in the workplace. It is myth propagated by childless people who get pissy when occasionally a compassionate employer shows slight favoratism to an employee with children (like my early example of the woman with three kids who got to work a M-F, 9-5 shift, when no other supervisor were allowed such a schedule.) Again, in many (if not most cases), women with children end up making more sacrifices at work that cause a loss in income, and they are almost never compensated for those sacrifices. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/31/2005 14:05:52 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 20:36:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
By the sports car analogy are you trying to say that having children is a luxury?
Not at all. Just that it is a choice. I don't think that a person should be penalized because they choose not to have children just like I don't think a person should be penalized because they choose not to own a vintage sports car.quote:
If so, that's a dangerous line of thinking to trudge down, as it leads to the contention that poor people shouldn't have children.
You don't nessessarily have to be rich to own a vintage sports car. And you might be surprised at the level of emotional attachment that some guys have with their cars.quote:
I think my lack of monetary advantage argument is perfectly sound - can anyone demonstrate to me how people in our society with children are financially more sucessful than childless people because of advantages they get in the workplace? If someone proves that to me, I'll have to change my opinion.
It's been my experience that some parents do use the fact that they have children to gain unfair advantages in the workplace. I'm certainly not against a little human understanding but when I have to fill in for the same person every other week because junior has the sniffles it wears thin pretty quick.quote:
There is no huge, far-reaching social advantage that people with children have in the workplace. It is myth propagated by childless people who get pissy when occasionally a compassionate employer shows slight favoratism to an employee with children (like my early example of the woman with three kids who got to work a M-F, 9-5 shift, when no other supervisor were allowed such a schedule.)
Well if I had a particular need for a 9-5 shift I would hope that my employer would give it some consideration and not simply rule it out because I don't have kids.quote:
Again, in many (if not most cases), women with children end up making more sacrifices at work that cause a loss in income, and they are almost never compensated for those sacrifices.
What do you mean here? What kind of sacrifice are they making that they are not compensated for? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 22:50:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Again, in many (if not most cases), women with children end up making more sacrifices at work that cause a loss in income, and they are almost never compensated for those sacrifices.
What sacrifices?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2005 : 23:57:20 [Permalink]
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To Matt:
This isn't about emotional attachment. This is about the welfare of another human being - one that can't yet take care of itself. It is society's responsibility to ensure the welfare of, yes, even other people's children if those other people can't do it on their own. It is not society's responsibility to take care of sports cars.
when I have to fill in for the same person every other week because junior has the sniffles it wears thin pretty quick.
This sounds rather dismissive. Almost crass. Are you referring to an actual first hand experience? Do you think parents tend to just say they are caring for their children when in fact they are off yucking it up while you do their work for them?
Also, for what it's worth, I don't think we are disagreeing about much at all. We've definitely both acknowledged a grey area.
Well if I had a particular need for a 9-5 shift I would hope that my employer would give it some consideration and not simply rule it out because I don't have kids.
I would hope so too. That's why earlier in this thread I mentioned other human "needs" that I would hope employers would respond to, and that co-workers wouldn't resent. That's, again, why the sports car analogy doens't work - the car doesn't involve a human need (that might ultimately affect society, BTW). The child does.
What kind of sacrifice are they making that they are not compensated for?
I think my friend who is terrified that being visibly pregnant will make it difficult for her to gain tenure is a good example. But here's another - most hourly wage jobs don't give maternity leave. Also, even in jobs where women are compensated monetarily for maternity leave, the mere fact that they take maternity leave can be a disadvantage in very competative jobs. There is also the simple social pressures that women are expected to be the ones to sacrifice time at work for children. I know at least one married woman who is putting off having children because: "I know my husband won't be the one to sacrifice time. It will be me, and I'll resent him for it. So we just shouldn't have kids." |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/31/2005 23:59:22 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 04:49:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
This isn't about emotional attachment.
Yes it is. Maybe you mean that it isn't just about emotional attachment. That is true, it is also about personal responsibility and fairness.quote:
This is about the welfare of another human being - one that can't yet take care of itself.
Let's not get too melodramatic. No one is suggesting that we let the little tykes starve to death.quote:
It is society's responsibility to ensure the welfare of, yes, even other people's children if those other people can't do it on their own.
This would be why we have child welfare agencies, and public schools, and all kinds of programs to deal with these issues. Frankly you seem to be changing the subject.quote:
It is not society's responsibility to take care of sports cars.
 so this would be why the government refuses wash my car.quote:
when I have to fill in for the same person every other week because junior has the sniffles it wears thin pretty quick.
This sounds rather dismissive. Almost crass.
I'm not sure what to make of this. Do you feel that if a person is a parent they have the right to walk all over their coworkers? I doubt you do. But that's what I was annoyed about.quote:
Are you referring to an actual first hand experience?
Yes, many.quote:
Do you think parents tend to just say they are caring for their children when in fact they are off yucking it up while you do their work for them?
Sometimes I think they lie about having kids just so they can take advantage of me.  quote:
Also, for what it's worth, I don't think we are disagreeing about much at all. We've definitely both acknowledged a grey area.
I agree. Although my perception is that whenever I try to make a point you move the goalposts.quote:
What kind of sacrifice are they making that they are not compensated for?
I think my friend who is terrified that being visibly pregnant will make it difficult for her to gain tenure is a good example. But here's another - most hourly wage jobs don't give maternity leave. Also, even in jobs where women are compensated monetarily for maternity leave, the mere fact that they take maternity leave can be a disadvantage in very competative jobs. There is also the simple social pressures that women are expected to be the ones to sacrifice time at work for children. I know at least one married woman who is putting off having children because: "I know my husband won't be the one to sacrifice time. It will be me, and I'll resent him for it. So we just shouldn't have kids."
Okay, I think I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote this:
quote:
Again, in many (if not most cases), women with children end up making more sacrifices at work that cause a loss in income, and they are almost never compensated for those sacrifices.
Emphasis mine.
I interpreted this to mean that they make sacrifices for their work not for their family. I did realize that parents (especially mothers) make sacrifices for their families that have a negative impact on their work.
I think what you meant would have been clearer if you had said:quote:
Again, in many (if not most cases), women with children end up making more sacrifices for their families that cause a loss in income, and they are almost never compensated for those sacrifices.
My change in bold. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 07:48:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
when I have to fill in for the same person every other week because junior has the sniffles it wears thin pretty quick.
This sounds rather dismissive. Almost crass. Are you referring to an actual first hand experience? Do you think parents tend to just say they are caring for their children when in fact they are off yucking it up while you do their work for them?
My professor had a small child. We had a semester with her, 4 hours per week. She didn't go to work about three or four times because her child jumped off a table and hurt himself. The days she did go, she simply got there late because her child had the sniffles, or for some other random reasons always related with her child.
Twenty kids had their education damaged because of this. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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