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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2005 : 21:43:42
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A couple years ago I wrote some columns attacking the introduction of school vouchers.
My criticism of using the vouchers for religious schools was that is violates separation of church and state by giving public funds to institutions that practice religious discrimination in their hiring practices and that indoctrinate students. For me, that is reason enough to oppose them. However, so far the Supreme Court hasn't made a decision, and lower courts have made conflicting decisions. *cringe*
The debate over vouchers for charter schools are totally different. Some say competition will make schooling worse. Others claim it will shrink the gap between the rich and the poor. I found this great website full of info on the issue. It takes an editorial stance in favor of free educational markets, but puts forth balanced arguments on all sides. I have yet to read most of the studies on it, but thought I'd share: http://www.schoolchoices.org/index.html
Thoughts?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 22:58:09 [Permalink]
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I think vouchers for charter schools are just as bad as those for religious schools. It embodies an attitude that one's own children are more important than kids in "ordinary" public schools. I think it goes along with the complaints I see in letters to the editor about childless folks paying taxes that support schools. Think of what the effect would be on public schools if all the effort fighting for charter schools and vouchers were put into improving public schools.
Personally, I think it's in my best interest to live in a society where everyone has access to as much education as they want.
I think applying "free market" philosophy to things that are in many ways "extraeconomic" like health care and education is bogus. Everyone's health is potentially fragile due to infectious disease and accidents, and education makes life better even if it doesn't make one's salary go up. Especially when capital can move across international borders while workers can't, and the War on [some] Drugs continues, how can we claim to have or support free markets? |
trish |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 04:55:50 [Permalink]
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| Level the religious schools, problem solved. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 08:13:07 [Permalink]
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I don't think that vouchers for religious schools are unconstitutional because the government is not making anybody put their kids in a religious school. However, I used to be in support of school vouchers until I had kids and started to think about the consequences of it. My oldest child will be starting school next year. My wife and I have discussed and researched home school, private school and public schools. We have decided to go the public school route. We will be involved in our children's education so we will make sure that they are learning what they need to learn. We will also be involved in the school to try to make it better.
I think that most of the parents that will use the vouchers are the ones that take an initiative in the lives of their kids. I think this will make the public school system worse by removing parents that are involved in their kids' lives and care about the public school system. We should have a first rate public school system in this country and vouchers do not solve the problem of poor performance in our public schools.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 08:47:56 [Permalink]
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Robb,
Actually, if the country switches to vouchers, and vouchers lead to the closing down of many public schools, considering that the religious schools far outnumber nonreligious private schools, it is highly likely that is many areas of the country there will be communities were the ONLY option is religious schooling. And in many other areas the options might be religious schooling or truly terrible underfunded public schools (since vouchers do have the potential to funnel money out of public schools) and public pressure to improve the public schools would be gone.
But regardless of choice - do you support faith-based programs? After all, a drug addict or homeless person doens't HAVE to go to a faith based charity. But regardless, it's still my tax dollars going to an institution that practices religious discrimination in its hiring practices. As far as I'm concerned, that's government promotion of religion. And religion doens't need promotion in this country. ESPECIALLY not now. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/28/2005 08:49:31 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 09:29:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I don't think that vouchers for religious schools are unconstitutional because the government is not making anybody put their kids in a religious school. However, I used to be in support of school vouchers until I had kids and started to think about the consequences of it. My oldest child will be starting school next year. My wife and I have discussed and researched home school, private school and public schools. We have decided to go the public school route. We will be involved in our children's education so we will make sure that they are learning what they need to learn. We will also be involved in the school to try to make it better.
I think that most of the parents that will use the vouchers are the ones that take an initiative in the lives of their kids. I think this will make the public school system worse by removing parents that are involved in their kids' lives and care about the public school system. We should have a first rate public school system in this country and vouchers do not solve the problem of poor performance in our public schools.
The constitutionality of vouchers hinges on direct governmental funding for religions, not people being forced into them.
Under precedents of Minor v. Board of Education of Cincinatti (Ohio Supreme court, 1872), Abbington V. Schempp (SCOTUS, 1963), Watson v. Jones (SCOTUS, 1872), and others, governmental funding of religion aids religion and government should stay neutral in the case of religion. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 09:32:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, if the country switches to vouchers, and vouchers lead to the closing down of many public schools, considering that the religious schools far outweight nonreligious private schools, it is highly likely that is many areas of the country there will be communities were the ONLY option is religious schooling. And in many other areas the options might be religious schooling or truly terrible underfunded public schools (since vouchers do have the potential to funnel money out of public schools.)
I agree, I do not want any public school to be shut down due to vouchers.
quote:
But regardless of choice - do you support faith-based programs? After all, a drug addict or homeless person doens't HAVE to go to a faith based charity. But regardless, it's still my tax dollars going to an institution that practices religious discrimination in its hiring practices. As far as I'm concerned, that's government promotion of religion. And religion doens't need promotion in this country. ESPECIALLY not now.
I do not support faith based programs because I think private citizens, churches, organizations, charities and businesses need to take care of people in their communities on their own. I do not agree with the idea that government is required to help people in need. I also would not like my church to get involved with the government at all. It seems like it could cause moral dilemmas. After all, Jesus did not start social programs to help the needy.
I do not believe it is unconstitutional though. I don't see how giving tax money to a faith based organization is establishing a religion since any faith based charity can get money, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.
I agree that religion does not need to be promoted, Jesus does.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 09:38:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I don't think that vouchers for religious schools are unconstitutional because the government is not making anybody put their kids in a religious school. However, I used to be in support of school vouchers until I had kids and started to think about the consequences of it. My oldest child will be starting school next year. My wife and I have discussed and researched home school, private school and public schools. We have decided to go the public school route. We will be involved in our children's education so we will make sure that they are learning what they need to learn. We will also be involved in the school to try to make it better.
I think that most of the parents that will use the vouchers are the ones that take an initiative in the lives of their kids. I think this will make the public school system worse by removing parents that are involved in their kids' lives and care about the public school system. We should have a first rate public school system in this country and vouchers do not solve the problem of poor performance in our public schools.
The constitutionality of vouchers hinges on direct governmental funding for religions, not people being forced into them.
Under precedents of Minor v. Board of Education of Cincinatti (Ohio Supreme court, 1872), Abbington V. Schempp (SCOTUS, 1963), Watson v. Jones (SCOTUS, 1872), and others, governmental funding of religion aids religion and government should stay neutral in the case of religion.
Thats fine, these precendents are set and legaly you are correct. I was giving my thoughts on the issue, they do not happen to agree with our Supreme Court. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 13:25:28 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: "I do not support faith based programs because I think private citizens, churches, organizations, charities and businesses need to take care of people in their communities on their own. I do not agree with the idea that government is required to help people in need."
Well, I agree with you that the US government isn't required to help people in need. But I think it should, and happily, it often does. Public schools are an example of that - the government isn't required to provide that either. Another example is government funded nonprofits like the one I work for, which provides after school supervision, educational and engaging programming for truant kids. It provides teaching artists like me with jobs, and keeps kids off the streets, for a minimal amount of tax dollars. Not to mention a big benefit for society as a whole, as it prevents a lot of kids from becoming criminals. Since society as a whole would arguably benefit from programs for homeless, the mentally ill and drug addicts, the government has a good incentive to provide help for those needy as well. It would be nice if all communities were strong enough to handle these problems on their own, but obviously that's not the case.
Robb wrote: "I also would not like my church to get involved with the government at all. It seems like it could cause moral dilemmas."
Amen, brother! (Not being sarcastic. I WISH more American Christians had that attitude.)
Robb wrote: "I don't see how giving tax money to a faith based organization is establishing a religion since any faith based charity can get money, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc."
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...
Also, the vast majority of faith-based institutions trying to get government money are evangelical-type Christian ones. They are also the ones lobbying for Bush's faith-based initiative. Most of the minority religions are clammoring against it.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/28/2005 13:30:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 13:32:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I do not believe it is unconstitutional though. I don't see how giving tax money to a faith based organization is establishing a religion since any faith based charity can get money, be it Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.
Bush's faith-based initiatives don't offer money to any charity, they give preferential status to religious organizations. Can a non-religious charity get some of that ear-marked money? If not, Bush is attempting to establish religions as a better source of certain public services than non-religious groups which exist for the same purposes. The First Amendment doesn't prevent the establishment of one particular religion, it prevents the establishment of religion, period.
But, getting back to the topic... Florida, and at least a few other states, in their own Constitutions, say that government funds cannot be given to religious organizations at all. Vouchers do precisely that, whether by choice or not. So depending on the state, it may not even be a Federal Constitution issue. These state restrictions are much more specific than the First Amendment.
And frankly, I think "No Child Left Behind" will do more damage to public schools than vouchers (of any sort) will. After all, the idea that a failing school should get less help is completely bizarre.
Instead, schools across the country should be graded, and the one which does best gets $0 extra, while the worst-performing school gets the most out of the Federal pie. But, since this would encourage graft and cheating (to get worse scores, and thus more cash), a chunk of the money would have to go into putting well-paid Federal auditors in each and every school. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 17:16:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
How about a standard amount of funding for every school, then a bonus for the teachers of those who excel? In this way, schools aren't losing funding when they do poorly, but are still encouraged to do well.
Because a poor-performing school isn't necessarily the fault of the teachers, so penalizing them in particular (a denial of bonus) isn't fair.
What could work is if the schools never actually get to hold the money at all, but instead let the Feds know what's needed to bring performance up, and then the Feds get that done. For example, the Feds go through the process of hiring new teachers, and only afterwards does the government hand over extra money to cover their salaries. That sort of thing.
Of course, states' rights advocates and county school boards will go nuts at the above suggestion, but they're already fuming over NCLB, anyway. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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