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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2005 : 15:21:40
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from this thread:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4723
quote:
Originally posted by abnoxio
you going to TAM4?
That's something I would like to address. Now, I've heard about the TAMs by reading the JREF board. What do different people get out of this meeting? I ask because I have considered going as well and would like some input about it from different members of the forum. What are your opinions of this meeting? Be they good or bad. Aside reading about it from the JREF forum I found this article regarding TAM3:
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Dace_amazing3.htm
Now this is but one opinion, I would like to hear others as well.
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"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 20:28:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by AKM
from this thread:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4723
quote:
Originally posted by abnoxio
you going to TAM4?
That's something I would like to address. Now, I've heard about the TAMs by reading the JREF board. What do different people get out of this meeting? I ask because I have considered going as well and would like some input about it from different members of the forum. What are your opinions of this meeting? Be they good or bad. Aside reading about it from the JREF forum I found this article regarding TAM3:
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Dace_amazing3.htm
Now this is but one opinion, I would like to hear others as well.
I have, so far, not been able to attend The Amazing Meeting, but I would like to. Here is a description of last years meeting by a volunteer.
As for the site you referenced AKM, all I can say is I do not know any of those people, but they sure seem to have an ax to grind against just about every prominent skeptic. They also seem to have a pro psi agenda behind their criticisms. Well, they don't seem to have. They definitely have…
See:
Progress on Psi
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 20:57:13 [Permalink]
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Hi Kil,
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
As for the site you referenced AKM, all I can say is I do not know any of those people, but they sure seem to have an ax to grind against just about every prominent skeptic. They also seem to have a pro psi agenda behind their criticisms. Well, they don't seem to have. They definitely have…
It certainly does seem like they have an ax to grind. I would like to clarify that the reason I linked to that article is to try and be unbiased in my post. I mentioned the JREF but NOT linked to that site because I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that most sceptics here would be familiar with the JREF board and able to navigate to the appropriate TAM forum without linking. But, for those who think I should of posted a link, here it is:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=fa06b1a97c98eb4a1671802233104334&threadid=54194
Please note that not only do attendees post their views, they also address the Ted Dace article.
I only wanted to present a pro and a con viewpoint of TAM, I wasn't trashing the TAM event, I hope I didn't give that impression in any way.
But what I am really asking for is the viewpoints of members of THIS forum, be they criticism or praise.
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"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 00:48:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
As for the site you referenced AKM, all I can say is I do not know any of those people, but they sure seem to have an ax to grind against just about every prominent skeptic. They also seem to have a pro psi agenda behind their criticisms. Well, they don't seem to have. They definitely have…
Yea, completely. I wouldn't go on that post, it doesn't seem level. I have been to a TAM, it was a blast. Especially getting to talk with the folks and being in the group of people that can actually discuss things on a more logical level than the standard 'walking the street' folks. |
Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/ |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 03:23:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by skepticality
quote:
As for the site you referenced AKM, all I can say is I do not know any of those people, but they sure seem to have an ax to grind against just about every prominent skeptic. They also seem to have a pro psi agenda behind their criticisms. Well, they don't seem to have. They definitely have…
Yea, completely. I wouldn't go on that post, it doesn't seem level. I have been to a TAM, it was a blast. Especially getting to talk with the folks and being in the group of people that can actually discuss things on a more logical level than the standard 'walking the street' folks.
And there, in a nutshell, is why I hope to one day attend. I feel that I could learn a lot and perhaps, in some minute way, pass on a shread or two of knowledge in return.
As to being unbiased, I must confess that I am anything but. I am highly biased against unfounded and unsupported claims, blather and bullshit. Indeed, even if it's a topic I've never heard of, I will see it through a jaundaced eye until it has given me some solid reasons to view it otherwise. However, if those reasons are indeed solid, I am fairly easy to convince.
And there is where the skeptic often finds trouble, and is the reason that we are roundly disliked, even hated, by many: one man's good reasons are another's anathema. To some, solid evidences are things to be twisted and distorted to fit their own view of whatever topic; the ToE, for a leading example amongst a huge list.
There are so many that come to this forum, state their case with little more than the southeast wind over the garbage dump to back it up, then leave in anger when we won't buy into it, whole hawg. It has made some of us a little combative. Unfortunatly, this has cost us some interesting people as well as blithers, and is a habit I myself am trying to break -- not easy, as we've pretty much seen everything they have to offer, and thus the blithers have become tedious.
If nothing else, I'd like to go to TAM just to whine and bitch about that to the like-minded. 
On edit: I would love to see Randi have to cough up the million. It would open a whole, new field(s) of investigation and involve we skeptics in a lifetime of most satisifying argument. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/01/2005 03:33:39 |
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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 16:59:49 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the input so far guys. I wanted to present two different views of this event, I think it may be possible for even a sceptic to have criticisms of a sceptic event, as well as mentioning the good points. I ask because for me the considerations are as follows, in no particular order:
-Cost. I can be a stingy bastard at times and would REALLY want to get my money's worth.
-Education. Will I learn anything? Most probably, I have no doubt.
-Meeting people. As some of you know, being sceptical means being in the minority alot of times, meeting and making friends of like minds is a HUGE bonus for me. If this meeting is going to turn out to be cliquish or somewhat exclusionary, I'm out. I stopped posting to a forum because of this kind of attitude. I am not degreed, and I find it insulting to be looked down upon for it, be you a die hard sceptic or a super-woo.
-Is there a gym nearby? I have a daily regimen and wouldn't want to disrupt it (yes, totally minor point, but it's still a consideration for me).
As far as claims of paranormal or supernatural woo woo, well just like most of you, let's see the proof. Is it repeatable? It had better damned well be. Is it falsifiable (capable of being tested)? Better be. |
"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 19:01:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by skepticality
Especially getting to talk with the folks and being in the group of people that can actually discuss things on a more logical level than the standard 'walking the street' folks.
Please clarify what you mean by one of those "walking the street" folks? Do you find the average citizen to be less logical, incapable of grasping concepts not usually associated with everyday life? Do you find the average citizen dumber? How many of these "walking the street" folks have you tried to actually have a conversation with that requires a high level of logic?
To be honest, this sounds to be an exclusionary statement as it stands. Where do new people to scepticism come from if not from everyday walks of life? Sure, you can try to educate the young, as that should be. But even then, that doesn't gaurantee a logical and critical thinker.
Let's take a look at TAM for a moment. It is sponsored by an organisation called JREF, that would be the James Randi EDUCATIONAL Foundation. Who is supposed to be educated?
People who already know and understand critical thinking and logic, or someone who may need to learn more about it? The former is preaching to the choir, the latter is where the education has to be directed as far as I'm concerned. Not just JREF, but SFN and all other sceptical groups should keep this in mind. |
"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2005 : 21:58:39 [Permalink]
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| SFN does keep that in mind. That is the main reason why we are here. On the other hand, it is nice to hobnob with fellow skeptics from time to time. That is another reason we are here. That is not to say that people who are not skeptics are less smart than we are. Not at all. But speaking with people who are already critical thinkers means not having to explain critical thinking. Not having to explain skepticism and simply discussing it and comparing notes, so to speak, is not being the least bit elitist. This is not a private club with a secret handshake. And again, our first job is to educate. I can't speak for skepticality but it is my guess that read too much into his reply. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 08:00:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
SFN does keep that in mind. That is the main reason why we are here. On the other hand, it is nice to hobnob with fellow skeptics from time to time. That is another reason we are here. That is not to say that people who are not skeptics are less smart than we are. Not at all. But speaking with people who are already critical thinkers means not having to explain critical thinking. Not having to explain skepticism and simply discussing it and comparing notes, so to speak, is not being the least bit elitist. This is not a private club with a secret handshake. And again, our first job is to educate. I can't speak for skepticality but it is my guess that read too much into his reply.
What! No secret handshake! I feel fooled...  |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 08:14:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
SFN does keep that in mind. That is the main reason why we are here. On the other hand, it is nice to hobnob with fellow skeptics from time to time. That is another reason we are here. That is not to say that people who are not skeptics are less smart than we are. Not at all. But speaking with people who are already critical thinkers means not having to explain critical thinking. Not having to explain skepticism and simply discussing it and comparing notes, so to speak, is not being the least bit elitist. This is not a private club with a secret handshake. And again, our first job is to educate. I can't speak for skepticality but it is my guess that read too much into his reply.
What! No secret handshake! I feel fooled...
Well, actually, there is, albeit not as secret nor as complicated as what we Illumnati use. It is merely an upraised, middle finger....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 20:58:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originallt posted by Kil
I can't speak for skepticality but it is my guess that read too much into his reply.
Could be, maybe, maybe not, hope that's all it is, miscommunication.
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
What! No secret handshake! I feel fooled...
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Well, actually, there is, albeit not as secret nor as complicated as what we Illumnati use. It is merely an upraised, middle finger....
Aha!! Wow, so many sceptics I may have met in the past and never even knew they were trying to shake hands with me. |
"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
| Edited by - AKM on 08/02/2005 21:01:46 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2005 : 23:13:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by AKM
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I can?t speak for skepticality but it is my guess that read too much into his reply.
Could be, maybe, maybe not, hope that's all it is, miscommunication.
Speaking of skepticality, if you haven't already, check out his podcast at www.skepticality.com
I highly recommend it.  |
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AKM
New Member
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 20:00:31 [Permalink]
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| Thanks, excellent site. |
"Leadership is not magnetic personality—that can just as well be a glib tongue. It is not "making friends and influencing people"—that is flattery. Leadership is lifting a person's vision to higher sights, the raising of a person's performance to a higher standard, the building of a personality beyond its normal limitations." Peter F. Drucker
"If we could sell our experiences for what they cost us, we'd all be millionaires." Abigail Van Buren |
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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 12:54:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by AKM
What do different people get out of this meeting?
I get a free trip to Vega$ and all the skepchicks I can ogle.
More importantly, I get a sense of community when skeptics are increasingly marginalized, or worse, vilified. I get support from people who know what I do is the not only the right thing to do, but is also a moral imperative. And I get to talk to people who, while not necessarily like-minded, enjoy examining life and thinking about it instead of just being along for the ride. |
*****
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
"With tremendous respect to [the] BA, the problem isn't getting scientists to talk, the problem can be getting them to shut up." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 18:18:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bad Astronomer
I get a free trip to Vega$ and all the skepchicks I can ogle.
Oh, for the life of a celebrity skeptic.
That is, after all, the only reason I signed on as editor here on the SFN. Someone promised me fame and women and beer. What a rip-off. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 18:31:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by The Bad Astronomer
quote:
Originally posted by AKM
What do different people get out of this meeting?
I get a free trip to Vega$ and all the skepchicks I can ogle.
More importantly, I get a sense of community when skeptics are increasingly marginalized, or worse, vilified. I get support from people who know what I do is the not only the right thing to do, but is also a moral imperative. And I get to talk to people who, while not necessarily like-minded, enjoy examining life and thinking about it instead of just being along for the ride.
Sounds good to me, except the skepchicks part... though I wouldn't mind ogling at some hot skepboys... but I digress.
Now I've just got to fool some poor sucker convince some nice, charitable person to get me up there, all expenses paid. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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