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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2005 : 13:27:11
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Over at AMERICAblog.org, there's a thread about racial profiling in relation to searching people on the subway, etc.
My question to my friends here at SFN is to ask if they think it's effective or not. My initial inclination, to take the un-pc point of view, is to say yes. As various people have argued, to profile young Middle-Eastern looking males will let other terrorists have a better chance of success. But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
I throw this out there for debate/discussion. I am not really wedded to any position and wonder what the arguments are pro and con...
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2005 : 13:34:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
Ah, but not two weeks ago, a 70 year-old grandmother was found to be a drug dealer, here in good ol' Brazil. She was searched and found to be carrying a good deal of crack. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 13:58:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Over at AMERICAblog.org, there's a thread about racial profiling in relation to searching people on the subway, etc.
My question to my friends here at SFN is to ask if they think it's effective or not. My initial inclination, to take the un-pc point of view, is to say yes. As various people have argued, to profile young Middle-Eastern looking males will let other terrorists have a better chance of success. But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
I throw this out there for debate/discussion. I am not really wedded to any position and wonder what the arguments are pro and con...
But if you change the crimes given in the examples, one can push for racial profiling of any racial group.
For instance. We should encourage racial profiling for White American Christians because of the following
The Army of God
The Matthew Shepard Murder
Abortion clinic bombers
Abortion doctor shootings and murders
The Oklahoma City Bombing
Is it fair to the multitude of law abiding White American Christians who don't belong to an extremist sect of Christianity to profile them?
A couple of senior citizens in Lombard got busted a few years back for selling drugs out of their homes.
And then we have this lovely story today.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165407,00.html
From his name, I'm betting he's not Middle-eastern looking.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 14:00:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
Ah, but not two weeks ago, a 70 year-old grandmother was found to be a drug dealer, here in good ol' Brazil. She was searched and found to be carrying a good deal of crack.
Right, Siberia. But my point is that if NYC is looking for potential terrorists in response to the 2 (!) London bombings and (indirectly) the Madrid bombing, then we have a pretty good idea of who's trying to pull this sort of thin off. And it's not 70 year-old grandmothers. I think. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 14:03:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Over at AMERICAblog.org, there's a thread about racial profiling in relation to searching people on the subway, etc.
My question to my friends here at SFN is to ask if they think it's effective or not. My initial inclination, to take the un-pc point of view, is to say yes. As various people have argued, to profile young Middle-Eastern looking males will let other terrorists have a better chance of success. But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
I throw this out there for debate/discussion. I am not really wedded to any position and wonder what the arguments are pro and con...
But if you change the crimes given in the examples, one can push for racial profiling of any racial group.
For instance. We should encourage racial profiling for White American Christians because of the following
The Army of God
The Matthew Shepard Murder
Abortion clinic bombers
Abortion doctor shootings and murders
The Oklahoma City Bombing
Is it fair to the multitude of law abiding White American Christians who don't belong to an extremist sect of Christianity to profile them?
A couple of senior citizens in Lombard got busted a few years back for selling drugs out of their homes.
And then we have this lovely story today.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165407,00.html
From his name, I'm betting he's not Middle-eastern looking.
Right, Val. But if we were searching for people associated with bombing abortion clinics, young Muslim men would be down towards the bottom of my list. But the NYC subway system is concerned with something else. To my knowledge, fundy Christians aren't in the business of terrorizing New York City. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 08/11/2005 14:04:41 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 06:46:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Over at AMERICAblog.org, there's a thread about racial profiling in relation to searching people on the subway, etc.
My question to my friends here at SFN is to ask if they think it's effective or not. My initial inclination, to take the un-pc point of view, is to say yes. As various people have argued, to profile young Middle-Eastern looking males will let other terrorists have a better chance of success. But inefficient searches which include, say, 70 year-old grandmothers (of any race or creed) waste time, too.
I throw this out there for debate/discussion. I am not really wedded to any position and wonder what the arguments are pro and con...
But if you change the crimes given in the examples, one can push for racial profiling of any racial group.
For instance. We should encourage racial profiling for White American Christians because of the following
The Army of God
The Matthew Shepard Murder
Abortion clinic bombers
Abortion doctor shootings and murders
The Oklahoma City Bombing
Is it fair to the multitude of law abiding White American Christians who don't belong to an extremist sect of Christianity to profile them?
A couple of senior citizens in Lombard got busted a few years back for selling drugs out of their homes.
And then we have this lovely story today.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165407,00.html
From his name, I'm betting he's not Middle-eastern looking.
Right, Val. But if we were searching for people associated with bombing abortion clinics, young Muslim men would be down towards the bottom of my list. But the NYC subway system is concerned with something else. To my knowledge, fundy Christians aren't in the business of terrorizing New York City.
They talk about it enough. They consider it a haven of homosexuality and immorality only third behind Frisco and Vegas. Focusing on one group misses the other terrorists. They want to stop bombings, not specific ones. It is still no excuse to treat people differently. I think it falls under the whole equal protection under the law part of the 14th Amendment thing. Or did you forget the cheering of 9/11 by Robertson and Falwell?
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 08:51:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
They talk about it enough. They consider it a haven of homosexuality and immorality only third behind Frisco and Vegas. Focusing on one group misses the other terrorists. They want to stop bombings, not specific ones. It is still no excuse to treat people differently. I think it falls under the whole equal protection under the law part of the 14th Amendment thing. Or did you forget the cheering of 9/11 by Robertson and Falwell?
Of course some fringe people associate NYC with various sins and evils. My point, though, was that if you were going to put money on the most likely purpetrator of a terrorist attack on the NYC subways, the odds that it's a Middle Eastern male in his 20's or 30's would be-- what? 2-1? 7-5? While the odds of it being a young male of European descent would be less. The odds of it being a 70 year old woman would be small.
Assuming this to be true, then should agencies charged with protecting NYC subways take it into consideration? If not, how do they best protects them? Does randomly searching people, including 70 year old grandmothers, do a better job than something else? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 09:29:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
They talk about it enough. They consider it a haven of homosexuality and immorality only third behind Frisco and Vegas. Focusing on one group misses the other terrorists. They want to stop bombings, not specific ones. It is still no excuse to treat people differently. I think it falls under the whole equal protection under the law part of the 14th Amendment thing. Or did you forget the cheering of 9/11 by Robertson and Falwell?
Of course some fringe people associate NYC with various sins and evils. My point, though, was that if you were going to put money on the most likely purpetrator of a terrorist attack on the NYC subways, the odds that it's a Middle Eastern male in his 20's or 30's would be-- what? 2-1? 7-5? While the odds of it being a young male of European descent would be less. The odds of it being a 70 year old woman would be small.
Assuming this to be true, then should agencies charged with protecting NYC subways take it into consideration? If not, how do they best protects them? Does randomly searching people, including 70 year old grandmothers, do a better job than something else?
By using the technology provided to them uniformly across all people. In some cases, you rely on the people to tell you what's going on. Not much hope of that if you start targeting only some groups. You also develop your technology to better pinpoint explosives and weapons. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2005 : 12:06:40 [Permalink]
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| So you can put anything into your profile except race? That's dumb. The problem is only when it goes too far, which it obviously has and does. We shouldn't be arguing whether to use race in the profile, only how to use it. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 19:57:33 [Permalink]
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I'd argue that racial profiling does a lot more harm than good. Most of the additional security implemented since 9-11 is a joke and quite easy for a professional terrorists to get around. The vast majority of people are being inconvenienced, and in many cases, outright harassed.
On the issue of terrorism, it seems there are two most effective solutions. First, to create a strict police state that actually does provide the sort of security necessary to intercept terrorists. Second, to develop policies that don't encourage terrorism in the first place. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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