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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2005 : 14:01:31
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From the Chicago Tribune (registration required):
quote:
J. Matt Barber, a born-again Christian from Villa Park, hoped to get some reaction in December when he wrote a fiery online essay denouncing same-sex marriage and the "destructive nature ... of the homosexual lifestyle."
But the strongest response, Barber said, came from his employers at Allstate Corp. He said two supervisors slapped the article down in front of him, told him he was suspended without pay and had him escorted from the company grounds in Northbrook.
"I'm thinking, `What business is this of yours?'" said Barber, 36, who had worked for Allstate for five years, mostly in corporate security. "This is something I did on my own time. This was my own viewpoint. ... [One supervisor] said, `Well, you know, here at Allstate we have a very diverse community.'"
He did not identify himself as an Allstate employee, but the blog site added his bio information without his knowledge. A gay advocacy group then complained to Allstate. But Allstate claims he was not fired for his views:
quote:
In court papers, they said Barber was not fired for his beliefs, but for using company "resources for his personal journalistic activities."
Allstate spokesman Michael Trevino would not elaborate. But he said: "Allstate has never terminated an employee for expressing their personal views on their own time. Any allegation to that effect is false."
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Barber said he wrote the articles at home but concedes that he sometimes sent personal e-mails, including some related to his writing, from his company laptop. Allstate policy allowed this, he said, especially among employees who traveled frequently. Barber said he made no more personal use of his laptop than his co-workers did.
Of course, he is suing:
quote:
Barber's theory is that his views on same-sex marriage constitute religious expression and thus are protected under federal civil rights laws.
The suit is phrased accordingly, saying Barber "felt led of God to write and submit [the article] for online publication."
I think that the court should require him to prove the existence of this god in order to win the case.
Here's the article that started the whole thing.
Has Allstate overstepped its bounds? Should he have been fired? Do you think he'll win in court?
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2005 : 14:16:37 [Permalink]
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From the information stated, I do not think he should have been fired for this reason.
Is the state he is employed in a Right To Work state? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2005 : 18:40:50 [Permalink]
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I think firing him was clearly the correct thing to do. Hate speech is not religion.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2005 : 22:38:26 [Permalink]
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| The man is entitled to express his opinions, however offensive they may be. If the blog site added his bio information without his consent, that is where the problem lies. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 00:32:49 [Permalink]
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imo....
If he used company resources, in violation of their policies, then he should have been fired.... of course, firing for that kind of reason is generally done only after a couple of warnings, in my experience.
If they fired him for being a bigoted homophobe, on his own personal time, they they are in the wrong.
If he used company resources to post his bigotry... then they are in the right for firing him, even for a single offense.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 05:15:01 [Permalink]
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It's a sticky wicket...from my experience, if you are given a laptop, you are allowed to take it home. So it would depend on exactly what the policy of the company says.
The reason I asked what state he was employed in was that if it is a Right To Work state, then the company is not obligated to give warnings or even a reason for firing.
I agree, hate speech is not religion. However, if you quote scripture to back up the rhetoric, is it still hate speech? Where is the line? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 07:07:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
From the Chicago Tribune (registration required):
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">J. Matt Barber, a born-again Christian from Villa Park, hoped to get some reaction in December when he wrote a fiery online essay denouncing same-sex marriage and the "destructive nature ... of the homosexual lifestyle."
But the strongest response, Barber said, came from his employers at Allstate Corp. He said two supervisors slapped the article down in front of him, told him he was suspended without pay and had him escorted from the company grounds in Northbrook.
"I'm thinking, `What business is this of yours?'" said Barber, 36, who had worked for Allstate for five years, mostly in corporate security. "This is something I did on my own time. This was my own viewpoint. ... [One supervisor] said, `Well, you know, here at Allstate we have a very diverse community.'"
He did not identify himself as an Allstate employee, but the blog site added his bio information without his knowledge. A gay advocacy group then complained to Allstate. But Allstate claims he was not fired for his views:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In court papers, they said Barber was not fired for his beliefs, but for using company "resources for his personal journalistic activities."
Allstate spokesman Michael Trevino would not elaborate. But he said: "Allstate has never terminated an employee for expressing their personal views on their own time. Any allegation to that effect is false."
...
Barber said he wrote the articles at home but concedes that he sometimes sent personal e-mails, including some related to his writing, from his company laptop. Allstate policy allowed this, he said, especially among employees who traveled frequently. Barber said he made no more personal use of his laptop than his co-workers did.
[/quote]
Of course, he is suing:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Barber's theory is that his views on same-sex marriage constitute religious expression and thus are protected under federal civil rights laws.
The suit is phrased accordingly, saying Barber "felt led of God to write and submit [the article] for online publication."
[/quote]
I think that the court should require him to prove the existence of this god in order to win the case.
Here's the article that started the whole thing.
Has Allstate overstepped its bounds? Should he have been fired? Do you think he'll win in court?
[/quote]
He's fucked. Illinois is an "at will" state. Companies can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason at all.
Secondly, he should have checked how his bio information was displayed. Even casual linkage from a controversial site to your work can be grounds for dismissal. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 09:27:21 [Permalink]
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"At will" does mean that you can be fired for any or no reason as long as it is not discrimination based on race, religion, etc...
So he would have to prove that AllState fired him because of his religion. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 10:27:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
"At will" does mean that you can be fired for any or no reason as long as it is not discrimination based on race, religion, etc...
So he would have to prove that AllState fired him because of his religion.
Which, considering his personal information was out there and gay rights groups were able to link him to Allstate is a pretty firm reason for firing due to negative impact to the company instead of religious beliefs. DuPage county may be a hard bastion of Republicans, but we Democrats now make up 42-47% of the regular voting public in the county. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 10:32:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
But does it really matter if it is religion or not? Freedom of speech covers all speech, not just religious.
Yes, but private companies don't have to allow you freedom of speech. You have the freedom to run your mouth, they have the freedom to fire you for it.
A big deal is being made about the fact that this guy made the post on his time off. So what? Why couldn't the company just fire him for being a bigoted homophobe? It would seem to me the company has a right to maintain whatever sort of workplace environment they desire. The company has an image to protect.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/22/2005 10:34:20 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 19:50:29 [Permalink]
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I totally agree with Dude's stance on this issue.
I find Humbert's condemning of "hate speech" slightly alarming. I was at the Secular Student Alliance conference a little over a week ago, and there was a speaker on "confrontational evangelism", and the speaker concluded by stating that street and campus preachers were engaging in a form of "nonphysical terrorism". I know that the accusation of terrorism is worse than saying someone's job shouldn't be protected, but it's sort of the same issue. Speech is not action, except in very specific circumstances (like when one cries "Fire" in a crowded theatre as a joke). If this guy was not specifically instructing unlawful action, he has the right to speak his own mind on his own time with his own resources, without fear of losing his livlihood. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 20:20:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
If this guy was not specifically instructing unlawful action, he has the right to speak his own mind on his own time with his own resources, without fear of losing his livlihood.
But it wasn't with his own resources, nor was it simply "his own mind" since he decided to openly state what company was responsible for keeping such a man employed. (Failing to check to see what personal information is displayed amounts to the same thing through negligence.)
As a company faced with a potential campaign of negative publicity stemming from the actions of a single employee, they had every right to fire him. My comment was that spouting off about the blight of homosexuals on society is not protected religious expression.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/23/2005 21:14:07 |
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