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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 08/15/2005 : 13:54:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Sorry, thought I was helping. I'll step out.
Nonononono! You are helping. I'm the one who was batting the half-dead mouse around.
 Oops!
quote:
I just wanted to see bigbrain move the goalposts from "hover as a helicopter" to something even simpler (the craft of the Lunar missions didn't so much hover as they accomplished a controlled fall - even if they could hover). And then even simpler, and simpler. Had he stayed on-course, we might have gotten to the point at which bigbrain would state that NASA engineers don't have the ability to navigate between bed and bathroom in the middle of the night.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 14:00:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bigbrain
" ... Helicopters can perform hovering because the thrust is on the top and gravity forces act below and can balance it ... "
Originally posted by pleco
" ... Not quite...don't forget what the tail rotor does. Also remember there is a human (or auto pilot) manipulating the collective. And autopilot for helicopter has been around for a while and is not a "powerful computer ... "
Tail rotor prevents autorotation but is not a complex device.
Perhaps you haven't understood well the problem.
A helicopter can stay in hovering because its thrust is on the top
(go to: http://www.flyingcirkus.com
http://www.flyingcirkus.com/images/backgrounds/ZNBackground.jpg also radio controlled planes can hover)
but if it had thrust on the bottom nobody could fly it.
Try to balance a full coke can on your forefinger: it will tend to fall off in any direction at 360 degrees.
I think not even a powerful computer of today could balance LM moving rocket engine to react against all these gravity forces.
Have you seen any movie of that web site? Very skilful guys.
BUT THE THRUST IS ON THE TOP 
Have perhaps Aldrin and Armstrong used BWB system?
What is it?
BWB = Body Weight Balance |
"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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| Edited by - bigbrain on 08/15/2005 14:10:15 |
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 14:16:09 [Permalink]
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The LM stability issue was discussed at some length here:
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1115413692
Someone going by the handle "unknown" started ranting and raving about how it was unstable, how jump jets couldn't fly without fancy computers, how helicopters were stable because they screwed themselves into the air, etc.
"unknown" spent a lot of time Googling for big words and such, but didn't know what any of them meant, and in a forum populated with engineers and Apollo enthusiasts, was exposed and thoroughly dismantled. Additionally, JayUtah put a very simple problem in misaligned thrust to the board, which a number of members solved, but was clearly beyond the grasp of "unknown", who didn't even attempt it. He was banned for empty blustering and name calling, and left just as ignorant as when he came in.
Fortunately there isn't anyone like that taking up bandwidth here, right? |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 14:19:51 [Permalink]
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No doubt all of this was faked too:
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Movie/LLRV/index.html
quote:
The LLRV had a tubular metal framework with sheet-metal truss construction surrounding a 4200 lb-thrust, General Electric CF700-2V turbojet engine. The jet was attached to a large movable-gimbal arrangement. The gimbal permitted the engine and the framework to move independently. Propulsion and flight control were accomplished using a combination of the jet engine and rocket thrusters. It had no aerodynamic control surfaces.
The jet was controlled automatically to simulate flight within the lunar environment. Aerodynamic drag forces were opposed with vectored thrust so the vehicle would respond as though in a vacuum, and the jet supported five-sixths of the vehicle's weight to simulate lunar gravity.
Flight control of the LLRV was mainly done with small, hydrogen-peroxide rockets. Two sets of eight rockets were mounted around the vehicle to make it turn, or pitch up and pitch down. For added safety, each set was independent of the other, and the pilot could use either one or both.
After the jet engine had throttled-up enough to simulate lunar gravity, the LLRV's vertical movements were controlled by two rockets mounted in the center, next to the jet. There were also six emergency lift rockets that could also be used in the event of a jet engine failure.
The pilot's controls and flight instruments were in a forward-mounted cockpit that hung about six feet above the ground. The pilot sat in a rocket-propelled, Weber ejection seat. The LLRV was flown using a conventional stick and "rudder" pedal system for controlling attitude and yaw. Control inputs were sent to the thrusters through direct electronic signals, without the use of mechanical linkages.
The LLRV was able to duplicate the "feel" of the LM's controls, and it was equipped with some LM instrumentation, such as a radar altimeter, a Doppler radar for measuring velocity, and an accelerometer that gave indications in units of lunar gravity, from -1 to +10.
Interesting reading! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/15/2005 14:21:29 |
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 14:40:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sts60
The LM stability issue was discussed at some length here:
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1115413692
Someone going by the handle "unknown" started ranting and raving about how it was unstable, how jump jets couldn't fly without fancy computers, how helicopters were stable because they screwed themselves into the air, etc.
...
"unknown" is me. "bigbrain" fits better to me.
Calculations, mathematics, phisics are no use if you can't understand which problems you must solve in the real world:
those skilful guys who can keep in hovering planes couldn't do it if they piloted the planes staying seated inside because they would not been able to realize the vertical position
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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bigbrain
BANNED
409 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 14:56:45 [Permalink]
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Pleco said:
" ... Two sets of eight rockets were mounted around the vehicle to make it turn, or pitch up and pitch down. For added safety, each set was independent of the other, and the pilot could use either one or both.
After the jet engine had throttled-up enough to simulate lunar gravity, the LLRV's vertical movements were controlled by two rockets mounted in the center, next to the jet. There were also six emergency lift rockets that could also be used in the event of a jet engine failure ... "
Did LLRV have 24 rockets 
Then it was very different from Lunar Module (LM).
How could astronauts learn to land LM training with LLRV
(I'm learning to speak as NASA's buffoons)
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"Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit" (Flattery gets friends, truth hatred)
Publius Terentius Afer, "Terence", Roman dramatist
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 16:34:58 [Permalink]
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| "A walk down the path of history is crunchy with the crispy corpses of those who pooh-poohed or ignored the clown car of ridicule when it pulled-up to the curb" - Stephen Jones |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 16:51:39 [Permalink]
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| What's really strange here is that while bigbrain types a lot (spelled decently, even), he seems incapable of reading. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 16:52:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bigbrain...
A helicopter can stay in hovering because its thrust is on the top [...] but if it had thrust on the bottom nobody could fly it.
It's all true. Some of the forerunners to the faked space flight films were skillfully created in 1954, and show a fictional vehicle, clearly unable to fly because the thrust came from the bottom of the vehicle. A memorable part of the hoax was known as the VZ-9V Avrocar. Many people were under the mistaken impression that this thing actually did exist and fly without whirling and spinning out of control.
It is rumored that some of Hollywood's top matte artists were brought in as consultants on these projects, and many of the films were deftly produced by some of the most sophisticated 3D imaging software available at the time. The fictional craft was just a small part of a massive plan to build credibility with the American public so the complete hoax of space travel could eventually be foisted upon them. Through the next decade and a half people remained convinced that such a ridiculous concept was indeed possible. When the hoax of the Moon landings was presented to the American people, they had already been so lulled into accepting such nonsense that they believed every bit of it.
Thanks only to the superior intellect of world acclaimed physicists and mathematicians from remote regions of Italy, we now have the truth about this hoax. Through centuries of inbreeding, the genius genetic makeup of Leonardo Da Vinci has permeated entire populations of isolated areas in that great nation. Some esteemed representatives of that inbred genetic chain are to this very day trying to help us see the error in our thinking. It is only due to the stubborn arrogance of the American public that most people here still believe these clearly made up stories of moon landings and sending probes to other planets.
Believe it... or not.
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 18:01:00 [Permalink]
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| Are you shooting for PotM? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 18:17:25 [Permalink]
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| Sonar. How ridiculous. What with varying water (or air) densities, you might be able to judge distance with sonar. But that's it. Getting direction with little "blips" is far too complicated, and will never work. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 18:33:40 [Permalink]
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| They could always toss lizards until they heard one splash in the bowl. That would be a form of geckolocation. |
- TW
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2005 : 18:42:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
They could always toss lizards until they heard one splash in the bowl. That would be a form of geckolocation.
Damn, that's good. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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