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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:18:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
This says that we sin after birth, we do not inherit sin from Adam.
Either way, if a one-day old baby is a sinner after birth, if they die at one day old, they go to hell. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:34:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
The correct christian faith is any faith that beleives that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we can have forgivness of our sins through his death and resurection.
With all due respect, I didn't ask for a definition of the "correct christian faith", I asked what denomination you belong to.
You did ask which faith is correct.
I belong to a nondenominal church. I realise that nondenominational churches are not really nondenominational. Churches interpret the bible differently and consequently believe different things. But our church has no doctrine outside of the bible. I may disagree with catholics, methodists etc. on biblical points, but we all agree on Jesus and we are all part of Christs church. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:37:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
The correct christian faith is any faith that beleives that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we can have forgivness of our sins through his death and resurection.
With all due respect, I didn't ask for a definition of the "correct christian faith", I asked what denomination you belong to.
You did ask which faith is correct.
I belong to a nondenominal church. I realise that nondenominational churches are not really nondenominational. Churches interpret the bible differently and consequently believe different things. But our church has no doctrine outside of the bible. I may disagree with catholics, methodists etc. on biblical points, but we all agree on Jesus and we are all part of Christs church.
Thanks for that Robb.
I'm was just trying to gauge your POV...do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, for example? Do you beleive in speaking in tongues and interpretation of that?
Are you closer to something like Assembly of God, or Church of Christ, or...? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/23/2005 08:38:18 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 12:13:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I'm was just trying to gauge your POV...do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, for example? Do you beleive in speaking in tongues and interpretation of that?
Are you closer to something like Assembly of God, or Church of Christ, or...?
Our church used to be a Church of Christ, not to be confused with the United Church of Christ. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 09:10:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
This says that we sin after birth, we do not inherit sin from Adam.
Either way, if a one-day old baby is a sinner after birth, if they die at one day old, they go to hell.
I don't beleive so and this is why:
Everybody including children need to be saved. The bible states that all have sinned. Romans 3:10-18, 5:12-21 and 1John 1:10 are among them. The bible does not exclude anybody including children. There is only one gospel Gal 1:9. Only one plan of salvation and that is faith in Jesus Christ. So children must have faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. From the scriptures:
Mat 18:2-6 N IV. He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Jesus talks in verse 3 that children enter the kingdom of heaven. Also a key phrase here is “these little ones who believe in me”. These little ones already believe in Jesus. He says so.
Luke 18:15-16 NIV. People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
This states that children will enter the kingdom of god.
Psalm 22:9-10 NIV. Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast. From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.
David states that he believed in God from birth because God made him.
Samual 12:23 NIV. But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."
David had confidence that he would be with his dead child in heaven some day.
Mat 21:16 NIV Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, " 'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise?"
The babies still unable to speak can praise God. This indicates that they have faith.
2 Timothy 3:15 NIV. and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
The infants know the holy scriptures and God.
I do not believe that children have the same kind faith as adults or when children become lost. But I do believe because god has put eternity in our hearts from conception, children already believe in Jesus when they are born. This is Gods plan of salvation.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 10:00:13 [Permalink]
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You do realize that if your religion, and it's various documents, were consistent with reality you'd not have to invent this kind of ridiculous apology?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 11:24:17 [Permalink]
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Firstly, throw away any scripture that is not directly from god or jesus. Those would be just opinion and therefore heresay.
Second, all quotes of jesus were written down some decades after they were supposedly said by someone else. So are the quotes accurate? You must have faith to beleive that, especially when the gospels contradict each other on events.
What's left? There is no direct quote of jehovah, just some indirectly of jesus and other characters in the bible. Unfortunately, jesus elected NOT to write down anything directly.
Of course, the entire bible was written by men quoting god or jesus indirectly. god couldn't write itself, otherwise you would not have to have faith anymore. 
If christians beleive babies go to heaven, why are they so upset about abortion? Why do they wear seatbelts? Why are christians as afraid of death as the rest of the heathens when they supposedly KNOW for a "fact" they are going to heaven? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/25/2005 11:26:43 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 12:44:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Firstly, throw away any scripture that is not directly from god or jesus. Those would be just opinion and therefore heresay.
Second, all quotes of jesus were written down some decades after they were supposedly said by someone else. So are the quotes accurate? You must have faith to beleive that, especially when the gospels contradict each other on events.
What's left? There is no direct quote of jehovah, just some indirectly of jesus and other characters in the bible. Unfortunately, jesus elected NOT to write down anything directly.
Of course, the entire bible was written by men quoting god or jesus indirectly. god couldn't write itself, otherwise you would not have to have faith anymore.
I did not think you would agree. I just wanted you to know why I disagree with you on this subject. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2005 : 13:14:26 [Permalink]
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| Ok Robb I agree with that! lol Thanks for your thoughts on the matter, I appreciate your sharing even if we disagree on it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2005 : 01:15:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
You do realize that if your religion, and it's various documents, were consistent with reality you'd not have to invent this kind of ridiculous apology?
True!
A perfect revelation has no need for apologetics! |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2005 : 22:34:20 [Permalink]
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I have often wondered what causes a religious person to believe in things that to me - and surely to anyone who gives it a moments thought - are rife with logical contradictions.
Does the idea of faith not necessarily imply the complete absence of reason? If there was a reason to believe, then it would not be a question of faith, would it? Is the religious person, who has "faith" in whatever not already admitting to being unreasonable? Can one even have a rational debate with someone who refuses rationality?
Even scripture seems hostile to reason (Genesis 2:9) in its treatment of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". Christianity could make a decent case for children being free of sin if they give ignorance as being good, which would be consistent with a great deal of the bible in fact; it would explain why christians are referred to as sheep - I have always found it disturbing that people submit to being compared to farmyard animals; and perplexed that fundamentalists should be so staunchly opposed to accepting their primate heritage when they so gleefully identify with their lamb chop.
The bible takes on something of a Heraclitean (the only constant in the world is the constant (patterened) change) in that the only element of consistency in the bible is the lack of reason, which is essentially the lack of system or consistency. The beauty of it is that a person who accepts irrationality - as they must in order to have faith - will of course not be disturbed by the lack of system, and can fortify their position by irrational arguments and ignore any and all barrage of reason, snug in their armour of ignorance. It would seem then that Brian O'Shaghenessy was incorrect when he stated that "Onto nothing, nothing may be constructed". Only religion can be constructed Onto nothing.
As Scott Ramsoonair once - of something completely different - put it; "A beautiful nightmare of the surreal" |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 06:22:06 [Permalink]
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| Welcome to SFN SubjectMatter! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2005 : 11:58:02 [Permalink]
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| I continue to be mind-boggled that people are so silly. Why would you thank God for saving you from God? The whole Jesus thing is totally absurd. God lets his "children" beat up and kill his "son" so the "children" can thank the "son" and then god forgives the "children". |
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