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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
 Posted - 08/22/2005 : 07:48:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
So Jesus Christ died and served our punishment for us so God does not even see our sin on judgment day. It is taken off the record.
You realise what kind of paradox this is, if God is omniscient?
God cannot do everything. He cannot make a rock so big that he can't lift it. Also, he cannot see your sin after it has been forgiven.
So he isn't omnipotent. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 09:26:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
A just God must demand a punishment, just as our judicial system must demand a punishment if someone is found guilty of a crime.
[...]
Why should I be affended if these are your beleifs? I only get offended if I am ridiculed for my beleifs.
If you feel it is "right" or "just" to intentionally hurt people, make people feel bad, or kill people, you are dangerously mentally ill.quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
God is not like this. Gods perfect justice demands a punishment for our sins. That is why there is a hell. Gods perfect love for us made a way for us to be forgiven of our sins and not have to serve our punishment. We are not going to hell because we don't worship him, we are going to hell because we must be punished for our sins.
You claim there is a supernatural being endowed with perfect love for you, which has the ability to prevent you from sinning, which would allow you to sin, and then toss you in hell with the intent of making you suffer. You claim that all people are sinners, even children and others without the conscious capacity to understand the potential results of their actions. If you truly believe this you do have a screw loose. Your thinking capacity is damaged.
I feel sorry for your three year old daughter, being raised by one who feels she is already a sinner. How old will she be when you explain to her that she is bad, so bad that she's bound to suffer forever unless she accepts your belief in a mythical being? How old will she be when you explain that regardless of her ability to know right from wrong, your god would toss her into the fiery pits of hell? And, yes, you may consider that ridiculing you for your beliefs. They're ridiculous.
Now if you like you can stomp your feet a little and fall back on the old dusty standby, "I don't care if neither logic, rationality, nor intellect can even remotely support my silly beliefs, I do believe, that's all, I just believe."
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 09:40:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
We are judged because we sinned. God doesn't make us sin, we choose to. Even children choose to sin. He will forgive us if we ask. He already paid the penalty for all your sins.
We were pre-sinned when we were born...Orginial sin - there was no choice. I didn't choose to sin when I was born and I could not ask for forgiveness at one day old. At what age is a child capable of choosing?
quote:
Again, just because God knows what choice you will make does not mean that he made you do it.
Since god created the universe and time (past, present future), he created the situation in which you and I sin. No free will since the future is determined 100%. Your god has pre-destined me (since I'm the sinner here) to eternal damnation for something which I have no control over. Sounds pretty fair to me.
The paradox you present is a god that knows exactly how the future will happen, yet humans have free will and can choose what they do. I do not see how this is logically possible. If you say that god exists outside of logic or something like that, then we cannot discuss this further. Beleiving something like that requires the ability to belive in paradoxes or illogical paradigms (or faith).
quote:
Gods perfect justice demands a punishment for our sins
Your idea (i.e. your religion's idea) of god and "perfect justice" and what a "sin" is demands it. That does not make it so, especially if you fail Pascal's Wager and, let's say, Hindi is the correct religion. Even so, the perfect punishment is eternal damnation from a god capable of perfect love?
quote:
I think it is a bit arrogant for you to say why I love God
As arrogant as when it is stated (not saying you have) that atheists don't believe in god because they like their sinful life?
And if I'm being arrogant, so be it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/22/2005 09:44:54 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 10:22:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
If you feel it is "right" or "just" to intentionally hurt people, make people feel bad, or kill people, you are dangerously mentally ill.
What? Where in my posts do you get the idea that I want to intentionally hurt people?
quote:
You claim there is a supernatural being endowed with perfect love for you, which has the ability to prevent you from sinning, which would allow you to sin, and then toss you in hell with the intent of making you suffer. You claim that all people are sinners, even children and others without the conscious capacity to understand the potential results of their actions. If you truly believe this you do have a screw loose. Your thinking capacity is damaged.
OK.
quote:
I feel sorry for your three year old daughter, being raised by one who feels she is already a sinner. How old will she be when you explain to her that she is bad, so bad that she's bound to suffer forever unless she accepts your belief in a mythical being? How old will she be when you explain that regardless of her ability to know right from wrong, your god would toss her into the fiery pits of hell? And, yes, you may consider that ridiculing you for your beliefs. They're ridiculous.
Yes, she has sinned and no she does not understand what she has done yet. The bible is clear that she and all children have faith in Jesus and will not be going to hell if they die as children. God loves her and will pursue her as long as she lives so that she will be with him forever. This is what god wants for everybody.
quote:
Now if you like you can stomp your feet a little and fall back on the old dusty standby, "I don't care if neither logic, rationality, nor intellect can even remotely support my silly beliefs, I do believe, that's all, I just believe."
Is this what you do when people come to different conclusions than you do? Resort to ridiculing.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 10:31:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
We were pre-sinned when we were born...Orginial sin - there was no choice. I didn't choose to sin when I was born and I could not ask for forgiveness at one day old. At what age is a child capable of choosing?
People are not born sinners, they are born good. If this were the case then Jesus would have been a sinner.
quote:
Again, just because God knows what choice you will make does not mean that he made you do it.
quote:
Since god created the universe and time (past, present future), he created the situation in which you and I sin. No free will since the future is determined 100%. Your god has pre-destined me (since I'm the sinner here) to eternal damnation for something which I have no control over. Sounds pretty fair to me.
The paradox you present is a god that knows exactly how the future will happen, yet humans have free will and can choose what they do. I do not see how this is logically possible. If you say that god exists outside of logic or something like that, then we cannot discuss this further. Beleiving something like that requires the ability to belive in paradoxes or illogical paradigms (or faith).
I guess we disagree.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 11:18:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
People are not born sinners, they are born good. If this were the case then Jesus would have been a sinner.
If I may, what denomination of chrisitanity are you? I ask because not all chrisitan faiths agree on Original Sin. So which chrisitian faith is correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
quote:
The doctrine holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the wrong-doing of the first ancestors...
quote:
The New Testament teaching on original sin is briefly summarized by the Apostle Paul, who wrote: "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." (Rom 5:12 NRSV).
Catholics teach that jesus did not sin because of the Immaculate Conception, because this sin is passed through the semen (somehow), and since god impregnated mary this did not happen.
quote:
Not only do individuals inherit a sinful nature due to Adam's fall, but since he was the federal head and representative of the human race, all whom he represented inherit the guilt of his sin by imputation.
This means that all humans have this sin, which means that one day old babies also have it, and since they cannot ask for forgiveness, they go straight to hell if they die.
Which leads to the fact that if the story of geneis is false, then original sin does not exist, and the purpose of jesus (as stated because of original sin) is nullified.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/22/2005 11:28:51 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 12:59:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Catholics teach that jesus did not sin because of the Immaculate Conception, because this sin is passed through the semen (somehow), and since god impregnated mary this did not happen.
That would explain why the Catholic Church is so adamantly against human cloning: a woman giving birth to her clone would be free from sin, and live forever. Shit, I just realised that if this doctrine was true, then the sheep Dolly will never die. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 13:04:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I find no gratification that bad or good people are burning in hell.
I would find much gratification in the thought that Fred Phelps and George W. Bush will burn in Hellfire, eternally, when they die, should I again (God forbid) come to believe in the Christian God. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 13:14:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I find no gratification that bad or good people are burning in hell.
... should I again (God forbid) come to believe in the Christian God.
Oh Mab, you make me smile.
The sheer irony of that phrase fragment truly made my day better, even if it's unintended. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 19:52:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb...quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack...
If you feel it is "right" or "just" to intentionally hurt people, make people feel bad, or kill people, you are dangerously mentally ill.
What? Where in my posts do you get the idea that I want to intentionally hurt people?
Perhaps I wasn't totally clear. I didn't say you want to intentionally hurt people. I said you believe intentionally hurting people is right or just. The fact that you believe it is just for your state to hurt or kill people, or for your god to make people suffer by putting them in hell, still puts you in the position of believing it is right. And here's where in your post I got that idea...quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
The reason is that God cannot look the other way when sin is committed. A just God must demand a punishment, just as our judicial system must demand a punishment if someone is found guilty of a crime.
And regarding...quote:
Originally posted by Robb...quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack...
You claim there is a supernatural being endowed with perfect love for you, which has the ability to prevent you from sinning, which would allow you to sin, and then toss you in hell with the intent of making you suffer. You claim that all people are sinners, even children and others without the conscious capacity to understand the potential results of their actions. If you truly believe this you do have a screw loose. Your thinking capacity is damaged.
OK.
Okay, good, at least we agree on that.quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
Is this what you do when people come to different conclusions than you do? Resort to ridiculing.
Many people have come to different conclusions than me on many many issues. I don't always find them ridiculous. Most times when I have disagreements with people there isn't an issue of damaging a child's psychological health involved. But when people live in fear of pain and punishment inflicted by mystical imaginary creatures, and when they raise their innocent children to believe they are also subject to the wrath of those imaginary creatures, I consider that ridiculous.
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2005 : 21:51:47 [Permalink]
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Ok, if christ "paid" for our sins, then why is there such a huge discrepancy between the time that christ is supposed to pay for our sins, (3 days) as opposed to an eternity for us?
Christ was supposed to be immortal before he even came to earth. We never even existed before we were born, yet we are the ones who have to pay the eternal price?
Now the second point:
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
We were pre-sinned when we were born...Orginial sin - there was no choice. I didn't choose to sin when I was born and I could not ask for forgiveness at one day old. At what age is a child capable of choosing?
People are not born sinners, they are born good. If this were the case then Jesus would have been a sinner.
Actually, Robb, from what I've read of the bible, pleco is closer.
Psalm 58:3
quote:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I know that's supposed to be metaphorical, but the message does seem to go against what you said above. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 08/22/2005 21:53:35 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:06:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Oh Mab, you make me smile.
The sheer irony of that phrase fragment truly made my day better, even if it's unintended.
It was not unintended...  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:08:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
If I may, what denomination of chrisitanity are you? I ask because not all chrisitan faiths agree on Original Sin. So which chrisitian faith is correct?
The correct christian faith is any faith that beleives that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we can have forgivness of our sins through his death and resurection.
quote:
The doctrine holds that every person born into the world is tainted by the wrong-doing of the first ancestors...
Can this be supported in the bible?
quote:
Catholics teach that jesus did not sin because of the Immaculate Conception, because this sin is passed through the semen (somehow), and since god impregnated mary this did not happen.
This is not supported by the bible.
quote:
Not only do individuals inherit a sinful nature due to Adam's fall, but since he was the federal head and representative of the human race, all whom he represented inherit the guilt of his sin by imputation.
This is not supported by the bible.
quote:
This means that all humans have this sin, which means that one day old babies also have it, and since they cannot ask for forgiveness, they go straight to hell if they die.
Babies are not born with sin. It is not part of their genetic code. But they do sin from birth as Psalm 58:3-5 indicates. They are saved through faith in Jesus. I will try to get a seperate post on this.
quote:
Which leads to the fact that if the story of geneis is false, then original sin does not exist, and the purpose of jesus (as stated because of original sin) is nullified.
I do not beleive in original sin.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:16:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
The correct christian faith is any faith that beleives that Jesus Christ is the son of God and we can have forgivness of our sins through his death and resurection.
With all due respect, I didn't ask for a definition of the "correct christian faith", I asked what denomination you belong to.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2005 : 08:16:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
Ok, if christ "paid" for our sins, then why is there such a huge discrepancy between the time that christ is supposed to pay for our sins, (3 days) as opposed to an eternity for us?
Christ was supposed to be immortal before he even came to earth. We never even existed before we were born, yet we are the ones who have to pay the eternal price?
I am not sure what you are asking, Are you asking why doesn't jesus have to burn inhell for eternity if he pays for our sins because we would have to?
quote:
Now the second point:
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by pleco
We were pre-sinned when we were born...Orginial sin - there was no choice. I didn't choose to sin when I was born and I could not ask for forgiveness at one day old. At what age is a child capable of choosing?
People are not born sinners, they are born good. If this were the case then Jesus would have been a sinner.
Actually, Robb, from what I've read of the bible, pleco is closer.
Psalm 58:3
quote:
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I know that's supposed to be metaphorical, but the message does seem to go against what you said above.
This says that we sin after birth, we do not inherit sin from Adam. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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