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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 08/20/2005 : 13:49:58
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So, does anyone have any idea what effect if any, that will have on us?
Source here
quote:
The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion." In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as "the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."
For one, whenever some fundy goes and says "atheism is a religion" it won't do any good to point out the the "Torcaso vs. Watkins" justification for it was just one judges' unofficial footnote.
Or does the phrasing make it different somehow?
"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005)."
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 08/20/2005 13:59:40
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 14:38:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
So, does anyone have any idea what effect if any, that will have on us?
Source here
quote:
The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion." In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as "the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."
For one, whenever some fundy goes and says "atheism is a religion" it won't do any good to point out the the "Torcaso vs. Watkins" justification for it was just one judges' unofficial footnote.
Or does the phrasing make it different somehow?
"The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005)."
Well, a problem I see is that if both non-religion and religion is, well, religion, then how does the government go about being non-religious? Will courthouses now have to strive to be not non-religious? And if so, doesn't that mean being religious? When they two collide, will that mean that the courthouse just blows up? Does anarchy then stem from that? Aren't days of post-apocolyptic Hobbsean nasty-brutish-and-short life just ahead? |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 14:39:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Aren't days of post-apocolyptic Hobbsean nasty-brutish-and-short life just ahead?
Yes. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 15:43:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
So, does anyone have any idea what effect if any, that will have on us?
No effect, probably. Although your link went to a temporary file which is no longer online (a case number would have been helpful), it sounds to me like this decision is just like numerous decisions beforehand: the government cannot make law which favors atheism over religion.quote:
For one, whenever some fundy goes and says "atheism is a religion" it won't do any good to point out the the "Torcaso vs. Watkins" justification for it was just one judges' unofficial footnote.
I think the proper response to such a statement is "oh yeah? So what if it is?" anyway, because it doesn't make sense for a fundy to level that playing field. In other words, if you're going to reply with a court citation, you're going to waste your time. Focus on the idiocy, instead. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 15:51:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, a problem I see is that if both non-religion and religion is, well, religion, then how does the government go about being non-religious? Will courthouses now have to strive to be not non-religious? And if so, doesn't that mean being religious?
No. The government just can't make law which favors either religion or non-religion.
A typical example of a law which is neutral to religion is the prohibition of marijuana. It doesn't matter what your religion is, it's illegal to smoke pot, period. Certain groups keep trying to fight it on First Amendment grounds, but they fail because the law doesn't mention any religion. Had there been an exception for, say, Rastafarians, that would have failed the neutrality test. Or had the law come into existence just to prohibit Rastafarians from smoking pot, that would have failed neutrality, also. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 16:28:07 [Permalink]
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Dave is right, I think -- this isn't going to amount to a hill of beans.
Thinking about it some more though, if atheism is a religion, then does it not deserve every recognition that other faiths recieve, hmm? Indeed it follows then, that we should benefit under Bush's Faith Based Initives programs just as Pat Robertson's scam did.
O my dear fundie breathern, be thou careful what ye wish for....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 17:22:55 [Permalink]
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If atheism is a religion then what about agnosticism? Or any other concepts that could be either a belief or a philosophy or both?
On a lighter note, if I devoted my time to Deltiology (which I don't), would that be a religion? (If I were really devoted.)
I mention this because many years ago I fooled a fundy who was spouting off about Satanic influences of various kinds, and I asked “What about Deltiology?” He got all serious with a knowing look and shaking his head warned to stay away from such things.
(Deltiology is post card collecting.) 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 17:41:54 [Permalink]
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| Just call me Father Pleco. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 18:50:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, a problem I see is that if both non-religion and religion is, well, religion, then how does the government go about being non-religious? Will courthouses now have to strive to be not non-religious? And if so, doesn't that mean being religious?
No. The government just can't make law which favors either religion or non-religion.
A typical example of a law which is neutral to religion is the prohibition of marijuana. It doesn't matter what your religion is, it's illegal to smoke pot, period. Certain groups keep trying to fight it on First Amendment grounds, but they fail because the law doesn't mention any religion. Had there been an exception for, say, Rastafarians, that would have failed the neutrality test. Or had the law come into existence just to prohibit Rastafarians from smoking pot, that would have failed neutrality, also.
Damnit, Dave, you ruined my whole schpiel! Soon I was going to start asking for money to protect people from the soon-to-come anarchy! And I was going to give 50% some of my proceeds to SFN! Oh well... |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 19:01:32 [Permalink]
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"Deltiology," hehehe!
Good one!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 20:04:49 [Permalink]
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Are Deltiologists the ones who always walk up to you on the street and ask if you want a free philately test?
But seriously, I think this quote is key:
quote:
"the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."
I read that as saying that the government must treat atheism the same as it would treat a religion. No favoring either side, no prohibiting atheism, etc. It reinforces our freedom to not believe.
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- TW
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 20:16:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
So, does anyone have any idea what effect if any, that will have on us?
Well, shouldn't that mean that atheist organizations can obtain tax exempt status?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2005 : 20:27:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Well, shouldn't that mean that atheist organizations can obtain tax exempt status?
They can. Any non-profit organization can. Religions may seem to have an advantage because they can avoid property taxes on their real estate, but non-religious non-profits, such as an atheist private school, could do the same. (Many schools do pay fees in lieu of taxes to cover water, sewer, garbage, etc. services, however.)
Not that there aren't some wealthy-televangelist-run religions that are non-profit in name only.
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- TW
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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