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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2005 : 16:33:43 [Permalink]
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Michael Brown resigns. George Bush could have possibly grabbed one or two popularity points by firing him. Oh well, at least he's out of that job. Any bets on whether he gets picked up by one of those Halliburton subsidiaries that are getting some of those New Orleans reconstruction projects?quote:
NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - The head of the U.S. disaster agency resigned on Monday after fierce criticism of his handling of Hurricane Katrina and U.S. President George W. Bush rejected charges that racism or the Iraq war slowed the government response to the disaster two weeks ago.
Michael Brown, head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, quit three days after the Bush administration pulled him out of the disaster area and recalled him to Washington, replacing him on the ground with Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen.
Only a week earlier, Bush had publicly praised him, saying "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."
Fema Head Brown Quits Over Katrina
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 16:45:25 [Permalink]
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I have a number of questions concerning the cry (not just from people on this thread) that the poor could have been bused out of New Orleans. I heard estimates that 80,000 to 100,000 people remained in the city after the mandatory evacuation notice because they couldn't afford transportation to get out on their own.
So even if you crammed 100 people on each bus you would need 800 to 1,000 busses to get the people out. The web site for the Chicago Transit Authority says it has 2,000 busses. How many busses did NORTA have? Their website currently has only hurricane related information.
And more importantly could they have found the necessary drivers once the mandatory evacuation notice was given? Considering that the NO chief of police said on Sixty-Minutes that about 500 of his officers left the city would bus drivers consider it their duty to stay behind to help?
Where would you take all the people keeping in mind that they have little or no money? In view of the determination of some nearby parishes to keep the victims out even after the flooding inundated the city how many places would have accepted large numbers of poor blacks into their community before the hurricane struck. Hell, Barbara Bush herself said it was a scary thought that some of the post-hurricane evacuees in the Astrodome expressed a desire to stay in Texas.
And finally it took several days to clear out the approximate 50,000 people in just the Superdome and convention center so is it realistic to think that up to 100,000 people could be bussed out in less than two days?
I'm not saying that it wasn't possible just that since this contingency was clearly never planned for (though it should have been) it would have been difficult if not impossible to set up on the spur of the moment.
I suppose this is one of those things that will always remain in the realm of should-a, could-a, would-a?
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 19:15:44 [Permalink]
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Very well put Stargirl. Clearly there was no plan to evacuate.
Many high ranking people for over 20 years ignored warnings that a cat3 hurricane might breech the levees. No suprise really that a cat5 named Katrina did. |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2005 : 21:38:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
And finally it took several days to clear out the approximate 50,000 people in just the Superdome and convention center so is it realistic to think that up to 100,000 people could be bussed out in less than two days?
Yes. It is entirely realistic to think such a thing could be done. It wouldn't be cheap, but it could be accomplished if the planning was in place.
As for getting people to drive the busses? Yes. As long as they felt there was a solid plan and good leadership in place you could easily expect drivers to work. It isn't like you are asking them to stay in the city afterall.
As for a place to put the evacuees? It had been said, many times prior to this hurricane, that FEMA needed to have the capability of establishing tent cities and temp housing on short notice. I'm sure you have seen the parkinglot filled with thousands of FEMA trailers (of the camping variety) that are sitting in GA.
No one can claim that any of the things we have seen from the gulf coast were unexpected. The extent of damage was well predicted.
Preperation and planning just seem to have been on vacation.... along with the president.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 00:07:54 [Permalink]
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Just a note about Lake Pontchartrain. The Army Corps of Engineers has had serious concerns about the viability of the levees for more than 20 years. In fact, I believe it was on PBS when I first heard about the ACofE wanting to restructure the canals, levees, and a sea wall to prevent NO from being drowned as the city is sinking. Much of the blame for the problems prior to Katrina were our dredging of the Mississippi River not allowing the sedimentary material that would normally settle into the delta was also causing problems for NO.
http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/bro/misstrib.htm
Unfortunately, many of the ACofEs suggestions for solutions are long term (as in decades of work) and we live with a short sighted society. Funding for measures to improve the delta have been either underfunded or not funded at all. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 05:40:27 [Permalink]
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 06:27:39 [Permalink]
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| Does this make Bush an accessory to negligent homicide? He cuts funding and appoints political friends to important posts which directly costs lives. I would also throw in the Governor of LA and the mayor of New Orleans. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 07:56:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Stargirl
I have a number of questions concerning the cry (not just from people on this thread) that the poor could have been bused out of New Orleans. I heard estimates that 80,000 to 100,000 people remained in the city after the mandatory evacuation notice because they couldn't afford transportation to get out on their own.
So even if you crammed 100 people on each bus you would need 800 to 1,000 busses to get the people out. The web site for the Chicago Transit Authority says it has 2,000 busses. How many busses did NORTA have? Their website currently has only hurricane related information.
NORTA has approximately 2-300 buses. The local school system had approximately 1,500 buses.
quote:
And more importantly could they have found the necessary drivers once the mandatory evacuation notice was given? Considering that the NO chief of police said on Sixty-Minutes that about 500 of his officers left the city would bus drivers consider it their duty to stay behind to help?
Where would you take all the people keeping in mind that they have little or no money? In view of the determination of some nearby parishes to keep the victims out even after the flooding inundated the city how many places would have accepted large numbers of poor blacks into their community before the hurricane struck. Hell, Barbara Bush herself said it was a scary thought that some of the post-hurricane evacuees in the Astrodome expressed a desire to stay in Texas.
And finally it took several days to clear out the approximate 50,000 people in just the Superdome and convention center so is it realistic to think that up to 100,000 people could be bussed out in less than two days?
You wouldn't have gotten them all, but you would have gotten more than what were. Thus decreasing the strain on local and federal relief agencies for those left behind. It is appalling that Mayor Nagin never even tried.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 14:06:52 [Permalink]
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There seems to be a few of the regulars here getting sucked into (my opinion) the Bush media blitz to soften the blame or shift it out right.
I continue to hold onto my skepticism in the matter. Before the levee broke, a very large percentage of people got out of New Orleans. For those that didn't and especially those without resources there are some issues. But, they had a shelter for the storm. There were issues there as well but generally the problems started AFTER the storm passed.
I keep saying but not many people seem to have responded, where were those buses and trains supposed to have taken those folks and how would the mayor have arranged that? Remember, you need to get folks out ahead of time since moving them all at the last minute isn't practical. Just where were they supposed to stay?
The governor has looked pretty stupid in her response to the Bush accusations so I'm withholding judgment there. But Bush and his 'talking points' campaign are pretty good at making people look stupid (EG Kerry).
But in the days that followed the storm, I saw the news, you saw the news, why on Earth didn't the feds know what was going on? Even now they are bungling everything in a bureaucratic quagmire. Listen to the interviews. These folks have to go here for a permit to enter, those folks have to go there. The trailers are still sitting in some parking lot. Blackwater the infamous Iraq contractor has paid private security in town. What, we don't have enough national guard we need those guys here too? There are no tents set up.
Then you see some show of how well everything is running at the Astrodome kitchens. How convenient. Set up one nice place to make it look like everything is being done smoothly. Well it isn't. It is still a big mess. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 15:04:20 [Permalink]
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This just in... Yes, George W. Bush is to blame for New Orleans flooding, or at least for the lousy job the Feds did at responding to the emergency. (But of course we knew that before Georgie did.)quote:
Bush: "I Take Responsibility" - NEW ORLEANS (Reuters)...
At the White House, Bush for the first time took personal responsibility for the federal government's slow response to the emergency, which stranded tens of thousands of people in the flooded city.
"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government, and to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility," Bush said. "I want to know what went right and what went wrong.
"Are we capable of dealing with a severe attack or another severe storm? That's a very important question and it's in our national interest that we find out exactly what went on so we can better respond," he said.
Call me skeptical, but I'll need to see it before I believe it. For one thing we're about to get another investigation of incompetence and corruption run by the exact incompetent corrupt organization being investigated. And then, to fix these problems I foresee a call for more government control over our lives, homes, businesses, habits, economics, etc.
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 15:07:19 [Permalink]
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| So is Bush going to resign now? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 07:41:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
There seems to be a few of the regulars here getting sucked into (my opinion) the Bush media blitz to soften the blame or shift it out right.
Nope. Just recognizing that he is not entirely to blame for this one. Before or after.
quote:
I continue to hold onto my skepticism in the matter. Before the levee broke, a very large percentage of people got out of New Orleans. For those that didn't and especially those without resources there are some issues. But, they had a shelter for the storm. There were issues there as well but generally the problems started AFTER the storm passed.
I keep saying but not many people seem to have responded, where were those buses and trains supposed to have taken those folks and how would the mayor have arranged that? Remember, you need to get folks out ahead of time since moving them all at the last minute isn't practical. Just where were they supposed to stay?
That should be part of any evacuation plan with secondary and teriary destinations as well. This is the responsibility of the local government to make evacuation plans and secure adequate destinations for a mass exodus. It should be part of the city's disaster plan.
quote:
The governor has looked pretty stupid in her response to the Bush accusations so I'm withholding judgment there. But Bush and his 'talking points' campaign are pretty good at making people look stupid (EG Kerry).
But in the days that followed the storm, I saw the news, you saw the news, why on Earth didn't the feds know what was going on? Even now they are bungling everything in a bureaucratic quagmire. Listen to the interviews. These folks have to go here for a permit to enter, those folks have to go there. The trailers are still sitting in some parking lot. Blackwater the infamous Iraq contractor has paid private security in town. What, we don't have enough national guard we need those guys here too? There are no tents set up.
Then you see some show of how well everything is running at the Astrodome kitchens. How convenient. Set up one nice place to make it look like everything is being done smoothly. Well it isn't. It is still a big mess.
The response to post Katrina LA nad MS is strictly a federal failing of epic proportions. FEMA, Homeland Security, and the President of the United States are wholly to blame for such a dismal response. Herr Bush's manipulation of the media has come to light with one network suing the federal government to cover body counts. (They won)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 09:23:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
....
That should be part of any evacuation plan with secondary and teriary destinations as well. This is the responsibility of the local government to make evacuation plans and secure adequate destinations for a mass exodus. It should be part of the city's disaster plan.
Look at this map. Go to the Katrina view and notice the bridge to Crescent City is not only still standing but is also connected to the Superdome area and the highway does not appear to be underwater.
While I can't tell from this image alone, it seems reasonable to plan on moving folks to the Superdome and then out after the storm should flooding occur. While the plan may have been flawed, that's different from failing to act. And if you expected federal help at that point, not mobilizing the school buses makes sense. In hindsight, one should have had the follow up evacuation plan in place and expect the feds to not be there in a timely manner. But that's hindsight.
quote:
The response to post Katrina LA nad MS is strictly a federal failing of epic proportions. FEMA, Homeland Security, and the President of the United States are wholly to blame for such a dismal response. Herr Bush's manipulation of the media has come to light with one network suing the federal government to cover body counts. (They won)
My point. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 09:32:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer...
Herr Bush's manipulation of the media has come to light with one network suing the federal government to cover body counts. (They won)
But of course the guys who would take away your guns feel entitled to make their own rules, regardless of a court judgment which supposedly allows the press to do their job.quote:
As Bodies Recovered, Reporters Are Told 'No Photos, No Stories'...
On Saturday, after being challenged in court by CNN, the Bush administration agreed not to prevent the news media from following the effort to recover the bodies of Hurricane Katrina victims.
But on Monday, in the Bywater district, that assurance wasn't being followed. The 82nd Airborne soldier told reporters the Army had a policy that requires media to be 300 meters -- more than three football fields in length -- away from the scene of body recoveries in New Orleans. If reporters wrote stories or took pictures of body recoveries, they would be reported and face consequences, he said, including a loss of access for up-close coverage of certain military operations.
Don't forget, these military people are going to be one and the same with your local police departments within the next few years. Expect to be treated this way without regards to the constitution, the law, or your ever dwindling rights.
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