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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
 Posted - 09/14/2005 : 09:49:06 [Permalink]
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You cannot be healthy and obese. Obesity is a disease and health is defined as "A state of physical and mental well being as well as absense of infirmity or disease" (Edexcel)
"Obesity is a condition in which the natural energy reserve of humans or other mammals, which is stored in fat tissue, is expanded far beyond usual levels to the point where it impairs health." (wikipedia) |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
| Edited by - Subjectmatter on 09/14/2005 09:51:36 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 09:50:39 [Permalink]
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| It appears that the bigger heath risk is sedintarianism (just made that up), or lack of activity. An active overweight person will most likely be in better overall health than an inactive thin person. While we tend too link activity to thinness, that is not always the case and you can be very active but still be overweight. BTW, my background is in exercise physiology & cardiac rehabilitation. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 11:01:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
You cannot be healthy and obese. Obesity is a disease and health is defined as "A state of physical and mental well being as well as absense of infirmity or disease" (Edexcel)
"Obesity is a condition in which the natural energy reserve of humans or other mammals, which is stored in fat tissue, is expanded far beyond usual levels to the point where it impairs health." (wikipedia)
Yeah, but does it impair the health so much the person actually feels unhealthy? I have arthritis, it impairs my health, but other than arthritis I am healthy. That's what I meant. The person is feeling ok, so why bother? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 11:18:27 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: Not that I should be pointing out anecdotal evidence but I can't resist here. I am a single parent and I have a very tall skinny child. His two best friends both come from intact and pretty functional homes. They are both fat and in fact, one of the two is quite obese. All three of them have to be forced to exercise more than the minimum it takes to walk to the bus stop.
My child takes after his very thin father and the other two look like their parents as well. I'd say in this case it is definitely genetics being acted upon by circumstance rather than poverty, depression and home life.
Since this is, like you said, anecdotal evidence, I'm guessing you posted it to say that even if there are more poor kids with obesity, it is still a problem for all kids? If that is what you mean, I totally agree, which is why I included in my list of solutions, the removal of all snack and soda vending machines at public schools and the serving of healthy lunches. I think the addition of more PE classes would be a good step too.
However, other than making such basic changes in the public schools I'm not for any other government intervention with childhood obesity. One of the reasons it freaks me out when people start calling obesity an “epidemic” is that I'm worried about parents getting blamed, and in the extreme, having to go to court or being otherwise reprimanded because their child is obese.
moakley wrote: I can't tell whether I'm being judgemental or just honest.
Could you be both?
Subjectmatter wrote: Being obese and being overweight are two completely different things.
Er, no, that's not true at all. My Aunt is overweight, and one day she went to the doctor and he told her she was 5 pounds away from qualifying as “obese”. A five pound disparity does not make two “completely different things”. I think what you mean to say is that there is a difference between people who are merely overweight and people who are very, or morbidly obese. But even there, your comparison falls apart when we consider health of people as individuals. For a person whose family history includes a lot of heavy people but not a lot of heart disease, being obese may be a minor health issue, but for someone with serious heart disease in their family, being obese may be a serious health issue. The definition of obesity that you gave, while accurate, is diagnosed the same way across the board, so obviously the actual health risks are going to vary widely by individuals.
Subjectmatter also wrote: if you are incapable of ignoring your desire to eat then you ARE WEAK MINDED.
Yeah, it can't ever be that your priorities are elsewhere. Give me a friggin' break. You know, if I made a seriously lifestyle change I could have the body of a model or athlete. Would I like that body? Sure! But my time is limited so I need to decide what's most important in my life, and quite frankly, I got enough more important stuff on my plate, and during my free time I'd rather sit around chatting here or watching House than be working out. ‘Cause, you know, I'd like to ENJOY my life. Moakley put it well, saying: Making these types of changes are not easily accomplished. These are the types of changes that you simply cannot commit yourself to for a month or two. It's a lifetime commitment.
Subjectmatter wrote: NOBODY want to be obese. Some people are quite comfortable being a little bit fat, I have no problem with these people, I'll even cheer them on for not succumbing to the obsession with an anorexic appearance that permeats the media nowadays.
How very gracious of you. I take it from the above wording that you do have a problem with people who are more than “a little bit fat”?
Someone very close to me, who is 61-years-old now, has a pretty serious obesity problem. She has diabetes, and her knee is in such pain that she has to get shots of - I forget the name but it's a k |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 14:29:24 [Permalink]
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I believe (nice quailifier huh?) that most overweight and obese people can show instances of tremendous willpower. Ask someone you know who is overweight whether or not they have ever lost their weight before and most will have at least one instance of following a diet and exercise program long enough to get down to a healthy weight. That can take anywhere from 6 months to two years of intense effort and willpower.
The hard part is maintaining those lifestyle changes indefinitely. You are fighting a lifetime of learned behaviour ever single waking hour. This is the point where people need help.
Enjoyable physical activity should be cheap and convenient, in many places it is not. Healthy food should be just as easy to get and enjoyable to eat as junkfood, it is not. If we are considering obesity to be a national epidemic then health, nutrition and physical education should come right behind the three r's and it is not even close.
Willpower can change your life, but it takes good planning and good luck to stick with the changes. |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 15:45:56 [Permalink]
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Here in Aus, or behaviours pretty much mirror those of the US, and so obesity is being considered a health crises here, also.
At least one expert agrees with you LizW, on the beginnings of how this problem should be tackled:
"Really what we should be doing is targeting adolescent girls in terms of behaviour they will then carry into adulthood," said Dr Gill, a Sydney University nutritionist. "We've got to find physical activity options that are attractive and acceptable."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/09/14/1126377375919.html?from=top5
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"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 16:34:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LizW
I believe (nice quailifier huh?) that most overweight and obese people can show instances of tremendous willpower. Ask someone you know who is overweight whether or not they have ever lost their weight before and most will have at least one instance of following a diet and exercise program long enough to get down to a healthy weight. That can take anywhere from 6 months to two years of intense effort and willpower.
The hard part is maintaining those lifestyle changes indefinitely. You are fighting a lifetime of learned behaviour ever single waking hour. This is the point where people need help.
Enjoyable physical activity should be cheap and convenient, in many places it is not. Healthy food should be just as easy to get and enjoyable to eat as junkfood, it is not. If we are considering obesity to be a national epidemic then health, nutrition and physical education should come right behind the three r's and it is not even close.
Willpower can change your life, but it takes good planning and good luck to stick with the changes.
Yes. And stop saying they're weak-minded, that they lack will power, that they are disgusting, that they're selfish, that they're self-concerned... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 18:21:40 [Permalink]
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LizW wrote: Enjoyable physical activity should be cheap and convenient, in many places it is not. Healthy food should be just as easy to get and enjoyable to eat as junkfood, it is not. If we are considering obesity to be a national epidemic then health, nutrition and physical education should come right behind the three r's and it is not even close.
I agree with you. But sadly, the majority of Americans don't even support basic universal health care, so they sure as heck don't give a crap about obesity prevention. (Except the ones who hate “fatties”.) And what you are calling for would require government subsidies. In the long run, it would probably help society a great deal overall considering the burden all the problems from obesity put on the health care system, but most people are not going to see it that way.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/14/2005 18:22:15 |
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soda_farl
New Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 19:30:33 [Permalink]
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| I don't even think you need physical education to combat obesity.After all physical education in most instances is just between one to five hours of activity a week in the schools. I think that encouraging children from an early age to go out and play rather than sit in front of a television and to simply not have junk food in the house will do wonders. People need to understand that you can't take in more calories than you burn through daily activity and remain fit. I'm always amazed to see people who fill their cart with calorie laden drinks that have no relation to anything found in nature,in putrid neon colors, and worse mother's who put soda in their baby's bottle. We could learn alot about how to prevent obesity by observing the behavioral patterns of people in countries that do not have a wide spread problem with obesity. You'll find that the people walk much more, and eat less junk food. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 21:21:20 [Permalink]
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| Hey Subjectmatter, you know what sucks? Eating the way you always have and one day you just blow up like a balloon. Wait until you get older. Lets see how “weak minded” you turn out to be... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 21:43:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LizW
Enjoyable physical activity shoud be cheap and convenient, in many places it is not.
Try going out for a walk or a jog. Get together with friends and throw a Frisbee around. Get some exercise and be practical and clean your house or apartment regularly. A lot of people have consoles now, play DDR ( http://www.getupmove.com/ ). There are tonnes of cheap options. Some don't even involve leaving the house.
quote:
Healthy food should be just as easy to get and enjoyable to eat as junkfood, it is not.
It is as easy to get. You will find it at your local supermarket. Enjoyment is subjective though.
I think that some people will need more help than others to keep motivated and to make permanent changes. But if you can't choose bunch of celery and dip or an apple or a tub of yogurt over a bag of chips or a bar of chocolate when you're buying snacks at the supermarket, I think you lack will power. I won;t say lazy, because at my super market, getting the fruit is the lazy option.  |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 04:43:37 [Permalink]
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Maybe the encouragement of friends is part of the answer.
quote:
Edwards predicted Maggie will become a shining example of the benefits of regular exercise for overweight pachyderms worldwide.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9340116/ |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 09:54:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Subjectmatter wrote: Being obese and being overweight are two completely different things.
Er, no, that's not true at all. My Aunt is overweight, and one day she went to the doctor and he told her she was 5 pounds away from qualifying as “obese”. A five pound disparity does not make two “completely different things”.
Just look at what you wrote. Surely you see the problem with the above? Obesity and being overweight follow two completely different frames of reference. Allow me to make an analogy to make things clear to you:
Subjectmatter wrote: Being obese and being a woman are two completely different things.
Er, no, that's not true at all. My Aunt is a woman, and one day she went to the doctor and he told her she was 5 pounds away from qualifying as “obese”. A five pound disparity does not make two “completely different things”.
Now do you see? I am overweight at 83 kgs 184cm tall, but I actually have below average body fat percentage, as such the most overweight person in the world does not necessarily have to be obese. (Although they probably are...)
quote:
Subjectmatter also wrote: if you are incapable of ignoring your desire to eat then you ARE WEAK MINDED.
Yeah, it can't ever be that your priorities are elsewhere. Give me a friggin' break. You know, if I made a seriously lifestyle change I could have the body of a model or athlete. Would I like that body? Sure! But my time is limited so I need to decide what's most important in my life, and quite frankly, I got enough more important stuff on my plate, and during my free time I'd rather sit around chatting here or watching House than be working out. ‘Cause, you know, I'd like to ENJOY my life. Moakley put it well, saying: Making these types of changes are not easily accomplished. These are the types of changes that you simply cannot commit yourself to for a month or two. It's a lifetime commitment.
Please re-read the statement, I said that being unable to ignore your desire to eat, not being unable to lose weight. My statement is taken directly from the definition of weak minded and is in response to the following from Siberia:
quote:
Is it truly? How can you know? What if it becomes a compulsion? If they can't quit eating, do they just have low will power or do they have an actual psychological problem that leads them to eat compulsively?
Which doesn't make sense in light of the meaning of 'low will power' (which I equate with being weak minded).
quote:
How very gracious of you. I take it from the above wording that you do have a problem with people who are more than “a little bit fat”?
I dont have a problem with anyone, only the culture, laws and policies that play a part in these people becoming obese. I realize that I may sound more than a little bit aggressive, but many of the things I enjoy most in my life would be difficult or impossible if I was obese, and I think no one should have to be in that position. (this is not to say that they shouldn't be allowed to be in that position if they desperately want to... alth |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:36:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
I wouldn't say that it sucks per se... and yes I am aware of this, I saw what happened to my brothers. But I am to understand that women are generally more chubby at 17-18 compared to 23-24 than boys are, and I have very little body fat, so I should be fine. (I actually eat a good deal more than some friends of mine that are decidedly round...)
As for girls, here may come the action of hormones and metabolism. I think someone else posted something about it on this thread.
Also, if you look carefully, that's precisely the way women have always been (just look at your average artwork from the near-to-distant past and see the trend; not obese, but 'chubby' and decidedly fat for modern standards) until the nutjob media industry threw about the ultra-thin model standard. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 14:25:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LizW
Enjoyable physical activity shoud be cheap and convenient, in many places it is not.
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Reply by woolytoad
Try going out for a walk or a jog. Get together with friends and throw a Frisbee around. Get some exercise and be practical and clean your house or apartment regularly. A lot of people have consoles now, play DDR ( http://www.getupmove.com/ ). There are tonnes of cheap options. Some don't even involve leaving the house.
These are viable options for some people but not, unhappily, everyone. I have lived in neighborhoods where exercising outdoors was easy and safe, I have also lived in neighborhoods where I wouldn't hang outside with a guard dog and a kevlar vest. Cleaning house will burn calories and increase muscle tone, but it is not what I would consider a tempting form of exercise. I love the idea of using games such as Dance Dance Revolution for exercise and I am going to try it myself, but many don't have the resources to purchase the system or the dance pad or the game itself. There are other forms of exercise that can be done at home but for the most part these are not going to tempt a sedentary person off the couch.
What we are lacking is exercise that can fit in to people's lives in a way that is not forced, but seamless and comfortable. Perhaps opening public schools up at night for community sponsored dances or martial arts classes with proper security. Perhaps it would help to advertise physical activity to people on tv as often as they see advertisements for things like hamburgers. These advertisements could be used not only to make people aware of the possibilities available in physical activity but to make them WANT IT. Make McDonalds and all the rest help pay for it, trust me their profit margin can take it, for every Big Mac commercial they have to put out a Big Ass commercial.
quote:
Healthy food should be just as easy to get and enjoyable to eat as junkfood, it is not.
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It is as easy to get. You will find it at your local supermarket. Enjoyment is subjective though.
I think that some people will need more help than others to keep motivated and to make permanent changes. But if you can't choose bunch of celery and dip or an apple or a tub of yogurt over a bag of chips or a bar of chocolate when you're buying snacks at the supermarket, I think you lack will power. I won;t say lazy, because at my super market, getting the fruit is the lazy option.
Most fruits and vegetables require washing and pealing, When you buy them already prepared they can be horrifically expensive. When people are exhausted on the way home from work even the effort of getting out of the car and standing in line at the store can seem too much. How about more healthy choices at the drive through windows? Fast food places have started to make some concessions in this area offering fruit salads and fruit side dishes. This is fantastic! Now we need to see more healthy choices in the main dish department and have them advertised as heavily. Breaded but baked white meat chicken nuggets, veggie burgers (which Burger King has but never advertises) but don't call them veggie burgers call them Super Energy Boost Burgers. Get some of the pizza delivery places to offer a whole wheat crust pizza with lean turkey sausage.
(sorry, I got overexcited and kinda wandered off there) |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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