|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2005 : 18:52:08 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
]Originally posted by beskeptigal
You can advise people to eat right and exercise all you want but research shows very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off. That tells us it isn't as simple as 'willpower' despite what some people choose to believe.
Actually, I believe that it is all about will power. People do not have the will power to follow good advice, for a lifetime. As pointed out by others in this thread being healthy is not easy. Too many unhealthy temptations, too easy to just pose for that painting.
Is it truly? How can you know? What if it becomes a compulsion? If they can't quit eating, do they just have low will power or do they have an actual psychological problem that leads them to eat compulsively? Is a smoker a person will low will power, or an addict? Why is it different for food - the bad type of it? What about the people who eat a full diet (as in, don't rely on fast food only to make them fat) but still get fat anyway (for eating too much of everything)?
Perhaps 10s to 100s of thousand years ago when meals were not so timely I suppose that eating your fill could have triggered a pleasurable response. And as I mentioned being healthy is not easy and some of us have greater obstacles to overcome. It is not impossible.
As far as smoking is concerned I have seen 8 out of the 12 smokers in my immediate family quit. I know it is a small isolated sampling, but it does show that it is possible to make healthy life choices, if the individual making that choice has the will to change.
|
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
 |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 20:18:14 [Permalink]
|
Subjectmatter wrote: I have heard that there is research which suggests that light and diet versions do not actually help as much as one might expect.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but gaining and losing weight ultimately comes down to calorie intake and calories burned. (We're talking about weight now, not other health factors). And diet sodas are usually 1 calorie or 0 calories. So how could they possibly help someone gain weight? They have been shown to be unhealthy in other ways, but we're talking about obesity here.
Dude wrote: But I can say this, in my experience as a healthcare professional I have never seen a 100 year old obese person.
Granted, I don't work in healthcare, but I've never even met a 100 year old person! Have you seen an 80 year old obese person? Most people (and stats) would consider living to be 80 a long life.
My grandma-in-law is 96, but her health has horribly deteriorated the last few years, she's quite crippled and unhappy, her short-term memory is gone, and she's repeatedly said things about being old like "I never thought it was going to be like this." But she's skinny. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 09/13/2005 20:20:51 |
|
|
|
LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 21:32:00 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
1. Should we tax products which the people think reduce the quality of life of others? Do people not have the right for themselves to determine what they should and should not buy for personaly enjoyment?
2a. Would this apply to other foods? If not, why not?
2b. If this does apply to other foods, which ones? And how do you establish a criteria for which foods should be taxed and which should not?
3. Should this be applied to other things besides food products? For example, video games? The argument can surely be made that video games decrease the quality of life. And in fact, the argument can be made that video games are part of the cause of obesity. A double-whammy.
4. How do you know that soft drinks are even a minor contributing factor of obesity? Where are the studies?
1. Yes, taxing items leaves freedom of choice intact, but makes the product in question a bit less tempting, and any extra revenue derived from the tax can be earmarked to help offset the item's negative effects.
2. Yes, there are multiple culprits in fast foods and processed foods and all could be dealt with similarly.
2b. This question would take input from many quarters, healthcare professionals, early childhood development experts, nutritionists...
I however would like to put my early vote in for any processed cracker or cookie made predominately from bleached flour, hydrogenated fats, sugar and or salt then shaped like Spongebob, or Dora, or Scooby or (put your kids favorite cartoon character here).
3. I am not the person to answer this question, as I find hunting pixelated zombies something akin to nirvana.
4. http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/8971.html |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 22:52:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Have you seen an 80 year old obese person? Most people (and stats) would consider living to be 80 a long life.
A few. But by and large anyone over 70 isn't obese. Heart disease and diabetes kills them by then, usually.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 23:19:40 [Permalink]
|
Dude wrote: A few. But by and large anyone over 70 isn't obese. Heart disease and diabetes kills them by then, usually.
Are you saying that most (over 50%) of the obese people in this country die before they turn 71? That seems rather high. I'd like to see it backed up. It doesn't take as much as most people think to qualify as "obese". I'm pretty sure most of my relatives that lived into their 70's would have qualified as obese (and my grandma who lived to be 75 and died of cancer was definitely obese). There's a lady in my writing club who is 81, has had heart attacks, bipass surgery, has diabetes, and yet she still gets along fine.
I think you are downplaying genetics a bit. My dad had a heart attack last year - at the age of 54 - and he's not obese, he works out, eats fairly healthy, and quit smoking 17 years ago. The docs told him he has thin arteries.
|
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2005 : 23:56:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by LizW
We still administer TB skin patch tests in schools, should we also consider testing for body fat percentages?
Should we consider being overweight a side effect of our changing environment, or is it just a personal failing?
If we don't find a way to separate the problem from the stigma, any process used to determine which children are at risk will cause emotional problems.
Subjectmatter, I love the idea of taxing softdrinks (even though I am a Diet Pepsi fiend.) I think the big players in fast food and processed foods should also be held responsible for helping to fund physical education intiatives and maybe some public health clubs.
One doesn't need to identify fat kids. Schools need to get rid of the crappy food and try to establish better eating habits in kids before bad habits are formed.
Our schools bragged about the kids can choose meals being healthy but I visited and the kids just left the veggies in the serving tray instead of on their plates.
The high schools sells french fries and they serve pizza all the time. I complained about that and the dietary folks just said they knew it was bad but the kids like it.
This year the district voted to remove all the soda. Big deal, they replaced it with Gatoraid and Poweraid. Only dif is the carbonation. Fortunately I have a very skinny kid but the schools are doing nothing for his friends who are very much overweight. They don't even have PE this year and the other years he only had it 1/2 year at a time. In the area of physical activity I have a couch potato or should I say video game junkie. The schools here are doing a very poor job in the diet and exercise departments. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 00:07:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
]Originally posted by beskeptigal
You can advise people to eat right and exercise all you want but research shows very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off. That tells us it isn't as simple as 'willpower' despite what some people choose to believe.
Actually, I believe that it is all about will power. People do not have the will power to follow good advice, for a lifetime. As pointed out by others in this thread being healthy is not easy. Too many unhealthy temptations, too easy to just pose for that painting.
Is it truly? How can you know? What if it becomes a compulsion? If they can't quit eating, do they just have low will power or do they have an actual psychological problem that leads them to eat compulsively? Is a smoker a person will low will power, or an addict? Why is it different for food - the bad type of it? What about the people who eat a full diet (as in, don't rely on fast food only to make them fat) but still get fat anyway (for eating too much of everything)?
I dread getting into this again since quite a few folks are very judgmental about obese folks.
How long can you hold your breath? Can you force yourself to stay dehydrated on a daily basis for years? While one can overcome overeating in some circumstances, the fact that most folks fail at it means there is much more there than just 'willpower'. You are literally fighting a biological drive that allows you to eat but resists weight loss. As long as you don't get fat it is easier to remain at a nice body weight. But once you gain the weight, your body truly does resist weight loss.
In addition, for some people, hormones play a big part in appetite. Low estrogen can result in increased appetite. It isn't just will power. Women put on weight after menopause. You put on weight during pregnancy.
I'm not saying a person has no control what so ever though I do believe that is true for some people. But I am saying the evidence is very strong either 95% of all overweight people lack will power or will power is not the issue. If you look at the evidence, it points heavily (pun intended) toward the latter explanation. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 00:10:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
...
Another manifestation of the selfishness and over indulgence of people in general.
...
As I was saying...many folks are extremely judgmental and poorly informed about the science of obesity. Might I guess you believe gays 'choose' their lifestyle as well? |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 00:16:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
.... – I posted a study here a while ago that showed that poor kids and kids from broken homes far and away tend to be more overweight because they tend to be depressed and less involved with sports and other extra-curricular activities. ...
Not that I should be pointing out anecdotal evidence but I can't resist here. I am a single parent and I have a very tall skinny child. His two best friends both come from intact and pretty functional homes. They are both fat and in fact, one of the two is quite obese. All three of them have to be forced to exercise more than the minimum it takes to walk to the bus stop.
My child takes after his very thin father and the other two look like their parents as well. I'd say in this case it is definitely genetics being acted upon by circumstance rather than poverty, depression and home life. |
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 00:19:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
....
As far as smoking is concerned I have seen 8 out of the 12 smokers in my immediate family quit. I know it is a small isolated sampling, but it does show that it is possible to make healthy life choices, if the individual making that choice has the will to change.
Once you are over the nicotine withdrawal and the smoking habituation, you no longer have a biological drive to smoke. In addition, one doesn't quit eating, one has to limit calories. It just isn't the same. |
|
|
|
woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 01:55:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
How long can you hold your breath? Can you force yourself to stay dehydrated on a daily basis for years? While one can overcome overeating in some circumstances, the fact that most folks fail at it means there is much more there than just 'willpower'. You are literally fighting a biological drive that allows you to eat but resists weight loss.
IIRC, eating releases endorphins (or whatever they are called) which makes you feel good. Apparently it's how our bodies make sure we eat. It feels good. So I guess there is some sort of addictive aspect to being over weight.
But while there is more than just will power involved, I think a lot of people here are just making excuses. |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 04:43:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I dread getting into this again since quite a few folks are very judgmental about obese folks.
And I just might be one of them. I can't tell whether I'm being judgemental or just honest.
quote:
How long can you hold your breath? Can you force yourself to stay dehydrated on a daily basis for years? While one can overcome overeating in some circumstances, the fact that most folks fail at it means there is much more there than just 'willpower'. You are literally fighting a biological drive that allows you to eat but resists weight loss.
Such as ?
quote:
As long as you don't get fat it is easier to remain at a nice body weight. But once you gain the weight, your body truly does resist weight loss.
Do you suppose that there was anything in our evolutionary history that would cause us to store excess calories as fat reserves?
quote:
In addition, for some people, hormones play a big part in appetite. Low estrogen can result in increased appetite. It isn't just will power. Women put on weight after menopause. You put on weight during pregnancy.
I'm not saying a person has no control what so ever though I do believe that is true for some people. But I am saying the evidence is very strong either 95% of all overweight people lack will power or will power is not the issue. If you look at the evidence, it points heavily (pun intended) toward the latter explanation.
I would like to look at your evidence. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 05:57:24 [Permalink]
|
Being obese and being overweight are two completely different things. Obesity is defined as a disease, being overweight is just not lying on the average, perhaps recommended, weight to height ration. Furthermore, one can be overweight but still have below average body fat percentage, but the condition of obesity means that you have so much fat that it is a direct danger to your health and well being. This is at least the definition we had to learn in GCSE PE.
NOBODY want to be obese. Some people are quite comfortable being a little bit fat, I have no problem with these people, I'll even cheer them on for not succumbing to the obsession with an anorexic appearance that permeats the media nowadays.
As for willpower; our thoughts, feelings and choices are determined by ongoing chemical reactions in our body - primarily the brain - this does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions, because we are in fact, free. An addict who cannot break a habit does not have the willpower to break that habit. Willpower after all is defined as the ability to overcome our basic instincts, or the pressures from the external world to act in any specific way, with the aid of reason.
You cannot blame the enjoyment you receive for eating too much for your obesity, if you are incapable of ignoring your desire to eat then you ARE WEAK MINDED. Now, you can call that a psychlogical condition if you wish, but every aspect of everyones behaviour can be described in the same way. Claiming that you are not responsible because of this would be akin to waiving your basic human right to freedom.
This is not of course to say that it is as easy for everyone to overcome that desire, but everyone is theoretically capable of it and make conscious choices to eat as they do. Unless of course they are somehow unconscious while eating...
Now, as for singling out soft drinks my reasoning is as follows: people tend to ignore the huge carbohyrate content of soft drinks that are not diet or light version (I'll come back to those) just take a look at the cnotents of one some time. I have seen people who are bordering on the obese struggle to stay on a strict diet, because they suffer from the misconception that starving yourself is a good way to lose weight, and reward themselves with litres upon litres of sprite for their efforts!
Fast food is often vilified in the media, but if you actually consider what it contains it becomes clear that wwhile it is devoid of most vitamins and minerals it does not contain a great deal of short chain carbohydrates or fat compared to normal food. The hamburger bread is no different from other white bread, the meat is fried on a pan which removes much of the fat, and the fries - while deep frying does add fat to it - are really not much different from boiled potatoes (albeit it depends a great deal on how they are deep fried). Ketchup and mustard and the like, as well as soft drinks, that are eaten with the fast food have a higher content of carbohydrates.
Also, people who regularly eat at fast food outlets are also generally people who do not take care of their body as well as they might.
As to the myth that losing and gaining weight are purely dependent on the intake and use of energy, that is ludicrous. Hormonal, emotional and habitual effects play an enormous role in our metabolism. If you eat large meals rarely and irregularly your body will make an effert to store as much of what you do eat as possible, causing you to become fat more easily. It is thought that this due to the evolutionary advantage of conserving food when it is scarce. Regular, smaller and more frequent meals have proven to be far less fattening.
The blind assumption that intake and output of Joules is the only cause of getting fat is what makes it so hard for people to accept that even diet coke can make them fat. But this is what many scientists have concluded. I attended a lecture on it once, the reasoning is well beyond high-school biology and I could follow little or none of it, but I do remember him saying that among other things, the taste of food affects our digestive system, metabolic rate and rate of absorption of nutrients... |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 07:25:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
]Originally posted by beskeptigal
You can advise people to eat right and exercise all you want but research shows very few people are successful at losing weight and keeping it off. That tells us it isn't as simple as 'willpower' despite what some people choose to believe.
Actually, I believe that it is all about will power. People do not have the will power to follow good advice, for a lifetime. As pointed out by others in this thread being healthy is not easy. Too many unhealthy temptations, too easy to just pose for that painting.
Is it truly? How can you know? What if it becomes a compulsion? If they can't quit eating, do they just have low will power or do they have an actual psychological problem that leads them to eat compulsively? Is a smoker a person will low will power, or an addict? Why is it different for food - the bad type of it? What about the people who eat a full diet (as in, don't rely on fast food only to make them fat) but still get fat anyway (for eating too much of everything)?
Perhaps 10s to 100s of thousand years ago when meals were not so timely I suppose that eating your fill could have triggered a pleasurable response. And as I mentioned being healthy is not easy and some of us have greater obstacles to overcome. It is not impossible.
As far as smoking is concerned I have seen 8 out of the 12 smokers in my immediate family quit. I know it is a small isolated sampling, but it does show that it is possible to make healthy life choices, if the individual making that choice has the will to change.
Yes, it is possible, and my own mother did it (quit smoking), as many overweight people did it. But some can't without aid, or can't at all. Saying that they just don't have the will power is not exactly helping.
Some smokers don't care that smoking harms their lives. Many obese people might just not give a damn. Maybe it's not lack of will power, maybe they just don't care. So what? It's their choice. I don't care to be a blond-straight-haired-blue-eyed-anorexic (and no, I'm not obese, in case you're wondering). Maybe they don't give a damn to health. Or maybe they are healthy, despite of obesity. That happens, y'know.
10 or 100s years ago, maybe people were actually on the verge of dying of famine. The problem shifted to another axis - the opposite. And there were obese people 10/100s years ago, too. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 09:48:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Yes, it is possible, and my own mother did it (quit smoking), as many overweight people did it. But some can't without aid, or can't at all. Saying that they just don't have the will power is not exactly helping.
Making these types of changes are not easily accomplished. These are the types of changes that you simply cannot commit yourself to for a month or two. It's a lifetime commitment.
quote:
Some smokers don't care that smoking harms their lives. Many obese people might just not give a damn. Maybe it's not lack of will power, maybe they just don't care. So what? It's their choice.
Ok. But how does this support your claim against of will power being a factor.
quote:
10 or 100s years ago, maybe people were actually on the verge of dying of famine. The problem shifted to another axis - the opposite. And there were obese people 10/100s years ago, too.
I suppose that obese individuals could have existed. But I was merely throwing that out as a potential explanantion for our obesity problems today. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
