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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2006 : 22:34:22 [Permalink]
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| RE "Social Darwinism" I think HalfMooner has a valid idea. One way of viewing laws are as to protect the weak from the strong... it's not to society's overall advantage to have situations where the heaviest fist, the biggest gun, or conglomerates of such dictate the rules and take as they wish. The same applies to those more clever or endowed with knowledge which might allow them to similarly take advantage through deception. Just a different aspect of the same thing. |
Ron White |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2006 : 22:50:04 [Permalink]
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Damn, you expressed those ideas so much more clearly, and far more succinctly, than I did!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 00:05:44 [Permalink]
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Thanks, Halfmooner.
RE Tony Robbins, I recalled something that struck me as odd from years ago- he actually did the same kind of "Health Expert" thing (although not as extreme) in one of his tape sets he sold during the period when he was a "fast rising star" prior to the (in?)famous Clinton-Camp David visit.
My brother was briefly impressed by the guy (but given a little time to let it all "sink in," his views changed) and he insisted I listen to Robbins "Unlimited Power" tape set. Basically, I found them to be a concatenation of a lot of tired "New Age"-type doo doo, cosmetically revamped and presented with Robbins' trademarked boundlessly confident, high-energy persona. One of the sections was something along the lines of "How To Achieve Great Health" and similarly Robbins employed the same ole' formula... including some common-sense suggestions (e.g. "drink a lot of water"), citing a few medical studies here-and-there to add a "legitimate aire" to it all, then becoming progressively exaggerative in his implications and claims. Just more of the same, patented, Robinesque style of doo-doo. A very well-polished presentation, but still just doo-doo nonetheless.
I remember that as I listened, I though to myself that if it wasn't otherwise apparent to someone that Robbins was a load of bull, that should definitely have tipped-them-off. Claiming to have mastered the "Success Through Attitude" thing is one matter, but next thing ya know, he's medically informed in ways that doctors aren't as well, and qualified to tell people "secrets" of attaining and maintaining health(???)
That parallel with Trudeau- which I hadn't recalled earlier- is a little creepy. |
Ron White |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 00:41:02 [Permalink]
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The common denominator here seems to be, if you are glib, dynamic, charismatic, and sociopathic enough, you can make good money selling anything from overpriced household cleaning devices to miracle cures. These people should be ashamed. But, being sociopaths, that emotion is unavailable to them.
Fine, if I get swindled out of $49.99 for an unremarkable mop, that's as much my fault as it is the huckster's, and I'm not seriously victimized, anyway. It's when these guys kill people by advising desperate people to throw away their meds and use their nostrums instead, then their medicine wagons should be shut down, at a minimum. And I'd prefer something more like a maximum.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 01:19:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
> Then then the Libertarians have their own official Party "list"?
List? Check out the 'platform' on their web page, there's a link to it on mine. CuriousCreations.com BTW, I also have a great letter that Harry Browne, wrote that IMO explains so much of what's happening today and how it could be better.(way down at the bottom of the page)
> but our private opinions about this don't have to prevent us from
> supporting some degree of laws to protect even the hilariously
> stupid, at least in my mind.
Ok, on this we can agree to disagree.
> a collection of social theories
I have little use for sociologists. Reminds me of those jury selection people who think they know how someone is going to vote. Nonsense!
> credulous though intelligent, yet open-minded.
Anyone can be naive in one way or another and accept, without much thought, something that on the surface seems logical. It's the further examination that makes the difference between the uninformed and the incompetent.
>>Snake: Well, sounds like we have a Libertarian in the making.
> I think of myself as one already, when it doesn't conflict with
> common sense.
ha ha
> Thanks, but when I express myself badly, nobody owes me an apology
> for not understanding me.
Well, you needn't be so humble. It could be the other person too. In my case, reading is very difficult, very easy to misread something. |
| Edited by - Snake on 01/24/2006 01:26:50 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 01:37:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Fine, if I get swindled out of $49.99 for an unremarkable mop, that's as much my fault as it is the huckster's, and I'm not seriously victimized, anyway. It's when these guys kill people by advising desperate people to throw away their meds
I've told you before.....
Yes it is, at least to some degree the buyers fault.
The point was, if someone is seeing a doctor (they'd have to if they've been taking medication) then they should be discussing what they are doing or going to do with their doctor before they 'throw away' anything. In other words, they were smart enough to go to a doctor in the 1st place, do they suddenly become hypnotized by watching an infomercial? I don't think so!
I don't think ALL that many are going to die either. Should that be the case and proven that it's directly related to the book then I think the government would have somethng to say about it. Family members would be reporting, somehow it would get out. If that were to be the case perhaps some would die but it wouldn't continue. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 02:16:41 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
In other words, they were smart enough to go to a doctor in the 1st place, do they suddenly become hypnotized by watching an infomercial? I don't think so!
One would naturally want to think not, but that's exactly what I'm saying. Some people with high IQ's are very capable of being saps for hucksters. quote:
Should that be the case and proven that it's directly related to the book then I think the government would have something to say about it. Family members would be reporting, somehow it would get out. If that were to be the case perhaps some would die but it wouldn't continue.
Our thinking is inching closer.
I'm going to try searching for evidence one way or t'other concerning whether people have been reported to have died or suffered serious ill effects due to Trudeau's advice, I've got a near certainty buzzing about in my head that this must be the case, but that doesn't qualify as evidence, even for me. If I find something, or even if I don't, you'll read it here first.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 03:00:26 [Permalink]
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It might be OK to let some fool who should know better pay and learn a lesson. But there are lots of folks out there who don't have someone watching over them and are not capable of protecting themselves from guys like this. A lot of elderly people, for instance, get swindled by these guys. Those elderly need the protection of government regulations and enforcement.
And we all pay for the massive amount of medical fraud of all these unsubstantiated remedies and potions. We pay in increased medical insurance dollars when the person gets sicker, for example, before seeking care that is legit.
I'd like to see the government step in myself. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2006 : 15:40:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
In other words, they were smart enough to go to a doctor in the 1st place, do they suddenly become hypnotized by watching an infomercial?
In a way, yes. We're all subject to emotional influences, some of which circumvent our rational thought processes because they operate at a more "basic" level. That's why in general taller men go farther in business, government, and good-looking waitresses can really rake in the cash. And there's more to it than just being "smart enough to know better"... con artists can "take" people who in some cases are far smarter than they are because they have advantages. The con artist has a pre-planned and rehersed "plan of attack" and strategy... the "mark" might not be on the lookout for an attack at all. |
Ron White |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 02:44:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
See the Amazon.com page for Trudeau's book. I went there
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975599518/ref=cm_rv_thx_view/102-8499126-8336121?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155) just now to post a quick negative review, including a link to the InfomercialWatch
(http://www.infomercialwatch.org/tran/trudeau.shtml) item on his book. I strongly urge everyone to post their own reviews and ratings.
Interestingly, the Kevin Trudeau Blood Money Machine seems even to be scamming the Amazon.com customer rating system. Here's what one reviewer points out, in the discussion area:
Nov 17, 2005 11:08 AM PST
Go down the list of pages and see that you get pages upon pages of 5 star reviews somtimes SEVERAL PAGES IN A ROW OF 5 STAR REVIEWS FROM A SINGLE DAY!!!
Its my personal contention that multi-millionare SCAM-ARTIST Kevin Trudeau is paying a staff to do this because most of the reviews where so negative until AROUND October 18, 2005. Then all of a sudden there is this big turn around....
SEE FOR YOURSELF! THIS IS TOO WEIRD.
ALL THAT IS REQUIRED TO SCAM THE RATINGS IS TO TAKE OUT A UNIQUE E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR EACH FAKE NAME, WHICH CAN BE GOTTEN EASILY VIA FREE EMAIL SERVICES LIKE YAHOO AND HOTMAIL.
AMAZON BE WARNED!!
SOMEONE IS SCAMMING YOUR RATING SYSTEM.
EVER SINCE THEN THE "RATINGS SCAM" HAS GOT HIS RATING UP FROM TWO STARS TO THREE 2/3 STARS. SOMEONE NEEDS TO STOP THIS!!!!!!!!!
M. Villalobos
My review never showed up. The reviews are either one star or 4-5. I have no doubt a lot of the reviews are from stuffing the ballot box. I'd also bet a lot of reviews are like mine, from people who know the guy is a fraud and want to let others know. Amazon of course would have an interest in keeping the rating up for the book since they profit from sales just like Trudeau does. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2006 : 11:04:16 [Permalink]
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ronnywhite wrote:
quote:
We're all subject to emotional influences, some of which circumvent our rational thought processes because they operate at a more "basic" level. That's why in general taller men go farther in business, government...
No, Ronny, it's because their heads are nearer to God. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 12:49:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
It might be OK to let some fool who should know better pay and learn a lesson. But there are lots of folks out there who don't have someone watching over them and are not capable of protecting themselves from guys like this. A lot of elderly people, for instance, get swindled by these guys. Those elderly need the protection of government regulations and enforcement.
Once again, let me say...You Can't Protect Everyone. Not everything is equal nor will it ever be.
Also, like with prisons and other situations, we need to spend the money on the other end. Education. Instead of after the fact.
More laws are not the answer. We have laws, why aren't they working?
The elderly don't need protection, IMO (other than an illness) if someone is gullible, they were like that before they got old. My brothers girl friend is middle age, for example, she has Trudeaus' book, so when she get's to be 85, she still may stay as uninformed.
quote:
And we all pay for the massive amount of medical fraud of all these unsubstantiated remedies and potions. We pay in increased medical insurance dollars when the person gets sicker, for example, before seeking care that is legit.
I'd like to see the government step in myself.
We do pay, yes. That's another story. The whole system needs fixing. I'd be willing to bet that what ever we pay for people getting swindled by people selling false claims is not as great as other schemes. But yea, we shouldn't have to pay at all. Insurance companies shouldn't be so quick to pay, maybe that's one answer.
Why should we always think there's a father figure (god or who ever) that's going to save us? The government wasn't meant to protect us from everything. At some point we have to use our own brain. Take some responsibility. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 14:47:02 [Permalink]
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Actually, some elderly people are easily intimidated and bullied into paying for things as well as being more easily deceived. You would be wrong to conclude they were dupe-able before aging.
I take it you do not have an aging parent that you have seen major changes progress in? |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 21:58:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Actually, some elderly people are easily intimidated and bullied into paying for things as well as being more easily deceived. You would be wrong to conclude they were dupe-able before aging.
I don't think so. Not in most cases, maybe some, like you said. But we came back to, how many laws are we going to make? Not every last situation can be covered. There seems to be no end to laws, as soon as something happens that wasn't thought of before, we rush to make a law.
quote:
I take it you do not have an aging parent that you have seen major changes progress in?
No, I do not now have any aging parents. My grandfather lived to be 94 and was spry and alert all the time until he got an illness, which did not affect his brain though.
One of my mothers baby sisters, the last remaining one is I guess about 80 something and you should see the mouth on her. My uncle on the other hand has Alzheimer's disease. And in spite of medication is getting worse. That's why I added the part about someone being ill. I just talked to my aunt the other day and had no need to 'talk down' to her or anything else. She's just fine. I wonder if Andy Rooney is he someone you would think needs a law.... or Mike Wallace, or many more. There are men in business and the government, while you might not agree with their idea they are still out there, working. If they couldn't make decisions, they'd be out and under someones care.
I have a friend who is in her late 80s, she's alert too and I can't picture her being intimidated. Both her and my grandfather grew up in a different time, more trusting. But that's different from not being able to comprehend, should someone explain to them they are being cheated. And being cheated in that sense IS NOT exclusive to an age group, IMO. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2006 : 23:50:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
originally posted by HalfMooner...it's because their heads are nearer to God.
Wow, talk about my overlooking the obvious! Always thought things could be "right in front of people's noses" for decades (or even lifetimes) but they never see them... I knew I'd get smashed in the teeth by that someday.
quote:
originally posted by SnakeYou Can't Protect Everyone... The elderly don't need protection, IMO (other than an illness) if someone is gullible, they were like that before they got old...
I disagree. It's an unfortunate fact of life that as we age, our physical health deteriorates, our mental processes slow, and our memory becomes impaired. Of course, the extents to which these apply vary greatly, with our lifetime habits having some impact, but factors predominately out of our control likely have a greater influence.
quote:
I have a friend who is in her late 80s...
I have an 82-year-old friend in a residential care facility in San Diego... I try to visit her monthly. Her mental acuity and memory powers appear to be at least as good as my own, but all I need do to know that sadly, she's a rare exception to the rule, is spend a few hours at the center. Aging people are also commonly burdened with chronic health problems, and (increasingly) financial difficulties often due in part to medical expenses. Disease, physical pain, and the hardships that often accompany them (limited mobility, poor eyesight, loss of hearing) chronically contribute to stress and depression- these being common among the elderly. Loss of many friends, family members, and isolation add to that, too. Serious or life-threatening medical conditions, and realities of impending death induce fear and desperation in many. People under emotional duress have difficulty make good decisions as easily as when they're not so hindered- that's true of everyone. Putting all of this together has traditionally made the ranks of the elderly a prime stalking ground for all strains of quacks and other flim flam artists. It's not their fault- they were just "unfortunate enough" to live a long time.
quote:
...The government wasn't meant to protect us from everything...
That's true, and admittedly, it's a balancing act. In some cases, laws to protect certain factions of people... whereas probably well-intended... are costly, for the most part ineffective, and sometimes protect some individuals in certain ways to the greater detriment of others. But in the case of the aging and ill, I think government protections are unquestionably justified for the above reasons. Invoking conditions to the effect of non-wealthy citizens dreading the prospects of growing old, becoming debilitated, or (worst of all) both isn't running society in a responsible way. |
Ron White |
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