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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2006 : 01:30:35 [Permalink]
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Snake, you are just plain wrong. I've been a nurse long enough to know what happens in the aging process. There are also mentally retarded people that live fully independent lives that benefit from society's protection.
Let's look at where we do agree here. I had a great time one year hiking all over Glacier Nat'l Park in Montana. There were bear warnings everywhere. They were at the Ranger station, the trail heads, and the campgrounds. There were pamphlets with all the guidelines about food storage and so on. If you are out in the back country, you'd be an idiot not to know that stuff already and if you were an idiot, bears were the least of your worries.
Then we crossed over into Waterton Lakes Provential Park on the Canadian side, (same park). We saw one itty bitty little bear notice on one bulletin board the whole time we were in Canada.
(BTW, we only saw one bear the whole trip and it was fascinating as the bear was swimming in the middle of a lake.)
Now that's the kind of protection unique to America. I've been to many countries and nowhere do they have as many fences on cliffs, warnings on labels, yellow stripes on curbs than in this country. I know lawsuits are part of the reason but that doesn't make it any less stupid.
But protecting people from swindlers, why not? Why shouldn't it be a crime to swindle people? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/27/2006 01:31:59 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2006 : 14:58:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Snake, you are just plain wrong. I've been a nurse long enough to know what happens in the aging process. But protecting people from swindlers, why not? Why shouldn't it be a crime to swindle people?
No I'm not wrong. BTW, my mother was a nurse, my aunt that I spoke of is a retired nurse and my X-sister is a nurse so I too am familiar with medical situations. (a lot of what I understand is due to my mother)
I've also had relatives who were in nursing homes but that's why they were there, they couldn't take care of themselves so there was someone to look after them.
We could go on telling of various personal situations but what I see in general, is that not everyone who ages is impaired to the extent that they can't think for themselves.
Yes, sure there are some...SOME who are on their own...'fall through the cracks' but I don't believe the 'problem' is a wide spread as believed so as to create special extra laws.
Being on ones own is a problem of American society, that's unfortunate but not illegal.
As far as laws about swindling people.
Duh! There's are! |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 13:50:00 [Permalink]
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OK let's clarify this, Snake, before we start talking past each other.
You said something to the effect that the elderly do not become more susceptible to hard core and fraudulent sales tactics, and that if they are susceptible, they always were.
I believe from my extensive exposure to the elderly, including education on aging, that as people age, some of them regress into a passive and fearful state. (Fearful or more easily pushed around, it varies and the degree varies.)
From the above post you seem to have gotten the impression I said ALL of them do. I did not say that, and if you drew the conclusion from my posts that I meant that, allow me to correct your misconception.
If you look at kids, some of them are very easily intimidated in a way most adults are not. There was a girl attacked here a few days ago that got into the man's car with just him telling her to. Instead of running away, she did what he said. I can tell kids I've never met in the store to put something down or stop running in an isle. Only a few of them ever say no. I'm sure the majority of people don't grow up to be passive like that so one can conclude (and not just from my experience...there have been many studies showing kids obey strangers, sometime in dangerous ways) that there is a stage of development where kids are intimidated by adults.
The same thing happens in the aging process to SOME adults. Some elderly regress into a state where they are easily intimidated and it isn't because they were always susceptible to fraud. There are many cases of these elderly being taken advantage of and unless someone is watching out for them, many have given away all of their savings. Those same people wouldn't have given away their savings before they aged.
So if we are just arguing over all vs some, there's no issue. But if you think everyone who is easily intimidated as an elderly person was always that way, then I'll go hunt up some research for you on the aging process.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/28/2006 13:52:25 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 21:42:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
So if we are just arguing over all vs some, there's no issue. But if you think everyone who is easily intimidated as an elderly person was always that way, then I'll go hunt up some research for you on the aging process.
Of course nothing that I can think of now is all one way or the other.
I don't always just answer the person who posted the quote mentioned either. Comments are generally to the subject. Ronny said something about older people loosing their brain power too.
You can find any research you want, I may or may not agree with it. I am telling you what I see for my self. That holds more credibility for me.
I just at this time believe that someone, me for example, who gives everyone the finger now, would at age 80 not be as angry as I am today. (I am trying to be more Buddhist though )
My doctor is an internist and also a specialist in geriatrics, coincidentally I have an appointment with her Monday. If I am able to go and have time to ask, maybe she can give me some of her observations. I like and trust her....so far..... so if she explains it (she talks to me in technical medical terms), maybe then I'll believe it.
LOL, maybe I'll email her and see if she wants to get in on this discussion.
ps. I just thought of someone else I might be able to ask, a researcher at University of Southern California..worth a try! |
| Edited by - Snake on 01/28/2006 21:54:36 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2006 : 21:47:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
From the above post you seem to have gotten the impression I said ALL of them do. I did not say that, and if you drew the conclusion from my posts that I meant that, allow me to correct your misconception.
In fact I said, if it was in this folder.....who remember everything and everywhere they write anything....
I said, we can't make laws to cover every situation.
So, if SOME people are having problems a new law might do more harm (for others) than good for the few it's supposed to save.
Even if it doesn't hurt others, we still don't need more laws. Those people who are having problems should be under someones care if they are that bad off and can't think for themselves. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2006 : 00:57:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
...
I said, we can't make laws to cover every situation.
So, if SOME people are having problems a new law might do more harm (for others) than good for the few it's supposed to save.
Even if it doesn't hurt others, we still don't need more laws. Those people who are having problems should be under someones care if they are that bad off and can't think for themselves.
There are laws on the books against fraud so some just need enforcing. But only recently have I seen the FDA crack down on the fabricated health claims made by people like Trudeau. So I don't think passing laws is the answer to everything either.
What I disagree with you on is not that issue, it's some of your ideas on the aging brain. There are some very specific changes people go through as they age. Not everyone goes through every change, nor to the same degree. But there are elderly people who are at risk because of the natural aging changes some brains go through. One of those changes can be to become more childlike. One change can be to become meeker and more easily bullied. Some people are just confused and follow directions given by swindlers out of confusion.
As to they need to be cared for, yes, they do and not everyone has someone looking out for them which is why society has to do some of the looking out. And people don't just change overnight. You don't lose the ability to think for yourself all at once. It's a very slow process. So you can't just put everyone away in a home.
As for what you will be like if you live long enough? Does the description crotchety old man sound right?  |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2006 : 01:22:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
As for what you will be like if you live long enough? Does the description crotchety old man sound right?
Are you talking to me?
Are You talking to ME??
(someday I'm gona have ta watch that movie!)
I've got news for you, Honey! I all ready am a pain to live with. Ask my room mate. And I've never stopped being a child.
So....... I don't know what or how my brain is changing or how anyone could tell.
AND........NO, I'm not just being funny. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2006 : 18:09:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
What I disagree with you on is not that issue, it's some of your ideas on the aging brain. There are some very specific changes people go through as they age. Not everyone goes through every change, nor to the same degree. But there are elderly people who are at risk because of the natural aging changes some brains go through. One of those changes can be to become more childlike. One change can be to become meeker and more easily bullied. Some people are just confused and follow directions given by swindlers out of confusion.
Can't sit and type for long, must go buy some medication too but here's the short version....from my doctor.
She said that's a WIDE generality. As you did say SOME, we'll give you that one. And as I said before in a post here, laws can't be made for every single situation, it's just not possible to keep writing them or enforce them.
What I told my doctor in the limited time to talk was that I'm having an argument with someone about the elderly and medical scams. I read to her, "One change can be to become meeker and more easily bullied. Some people are just confused and follow directions given by swindlers out of confusion.". She said she doesn't know of any research about the issue but if anything older people become more skeptical. Yes, that's the word she used. I never told her the name of this site nor used the word myself so it's quite a coincidence that she'd choose it. So, go find your research, I'll show it to her too. |
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