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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
 Posted - 09/21/2005 : 06:02:25
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A common conservadroid soundbite is "Socialism doesn't work". I usually shut them up with "Have you ever heard of Europe?". But to ensure that my info is accurate, I want to make sure that I am correct and have specific, quickly mentioned facts to support my statement.
Does anyone have a few sites that they can refer me to, or some countries that are one of the various "flavors" of "socialism" or "social democracy" -- at least as to how a conservadroid can understand it (1st grade level)?
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"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 10:24:17 [Permalink]
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Its really simple there are many forms and many levels of socialism. Europe is usin a quasi-capitalism/socialism, much different than the ideal pure socialism crap.
EDIT: http://www.answers.com/topic/democratic-socialism |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 09/21/2005 11:24:24 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 11:37:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Socialism doesn't work".
Which is very true.
None of the "pure" models we have developed in the last few centuries work.
Pure capitalism doesn't work.
Pure communism doesn't work.
Pure socialism doesn't work.
Pure dictatorship doesn't work. (only because you will never find anyone to take the job who isn't going to use the power to exploit others)
All of these forms of government must be moderated in some way to prevent their inherent inequities from causing harm to people.
Between the US and most European countries we have probably produced the best systems of government the planet has ever seen (from a greatest good for the greatest number viewpoint). I just hope that we can sustain it and continue to work to improve them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 14:27:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Pure dictatorship doesn't work. (only because you will never find anyone to take the job who isn't going to use the power to exploit others)
Oh, but I wouldn't! I swear. Please, people of the world, give me a chance. Make me Supreme Emperor of the Earth!
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 16:13:56 [Permalink]
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I don't know if Sweden is a good example for the kind of socialist state you were looking for, but let me tell you a little about it:
Sweden has had a Social Democratic Party in charge of the government since the beginning of the nineteen hundreds, with the exception of some 12-15 years here and there with "conservative and/or capitalist" Ministers of State.
We have a public health insurance which pays for basically all hospital visits for medical reasons, and which also cover 80% of salary loss when on sick-leave for a few months, after that, I'm not sure but I think it drops a few percent more.
The social security net is quite extensive, for example, the closest major city to me (Örebro) has a population of ~130000 only have about 250 homeless people. The attitude is that there shouldn't be anyone, but for various reasons (mostly mental illness) they have fallen through the cracks of the social security system.
Labor unions also have a huge influence: basically so much influence that there is actually regulations on how they may exercise their power. Normally, workers are not allowed to go on strike.
The Swedish school system is free (this includes all collage and universities), however, on college-level and above we have to pay for the literature.
Last time I checked, literacy was considered to be the highest in the world.
Politically speaking, Sweden's Socialist Democrats have historically always strived for a middle-way. A mix of Plan Economy and Market Economy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 20:24:16 [Permalink]
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| Medicaid, Food Stamps, Social Security are examples of Socialism at work in this country (actually, I've always kind of thought of being in the military as temporarily being a citizen of a Socialist regime of sorts within our borders, too) and the Great Depression was one example of the dangers of unrestricted Free Market Capitalism- controls are needed. I've sometimes wondered how the fund allocation levels are determined for Socialist programs (like I mentioned) within our borders, and what would happen if we went "extremist right"... absolute free market capitalism... like the political mouthpieces on the radio rave about. I don't think it would be pretty. |
Ron White |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 22:52:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
and what would happen if we went "extremist right"... absolute free market capitalism... like the political mouthpieces on the radio rave about. I don't think it would be pretty.
Not being an actual economist myself (but then, neither are the fatuous rightwing radio morons) it seem fairly obvious that a total free-market economy is unsustainable unless you totally eliminate the (also rightwing ideas) ideas if patent, copyright, and intellectual property, and so on. Even then a pure free market destructs at some point when wealth becomes concentrated enough.
Without the addition of concepts like redistribution of wealth, economic and social justice, and fair trade rules... the free market becomes a very destructive concept.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 06:55:59 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse,
Sweden was precisely the first country I was thinking of and I was hoping that you would respond.
When I say "socialist", I am NOT referring to that "pure" version that has truly never existed. When conservadroids rant about "socialism", they a.) can't define it, and b.) would consider ANYTHING that smacks of the "greater good" (i.e. food stamps, universal health care, welfare) as socialism, ergo "evil". Sweden's level of social services, if proposed by any politician here, would invoke such a hue and cry from the extreme right. What I am trying to reveal is that some level of social services is benficial to all and raises the standard of living by all the metrics commonly accepted. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 08:21:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
"Socialism doesn't work".
Which is very true.
None of the "pure" models we have developed in the last few centuries work.
Pure capitalism doesn't work.
Pure communism doesn't work.
Pure socialism doesn't work.
Pure dictatorship doesn't work. (only because you will never find anyone to take the job who isn't going to use the power to exploit others)
All of these forms of government must be moderated in some way to prevent their inherent inequities from causing harm to people.
Between the US and most European countries we have probably produced the best systems of government the planet has ever seen (from a greatest good for the greatest number viewpoint). I just hope that we can sustain it and continue to work to improve them.
Before this discussion can be meaningful, someone needs to define what we mean by "work." What characteristics does a "working" government/society/culture have? Does the US model "work?" So far it's worked for me, but not so well for the homeless guy holding the 'will work for food' sign I passed on my way to work this morning. Once you come up with some set of characteristics that a "working" society has, and that will be different I'm sure depending on who you ask, then you can start saying what works and what doesn't.
An anecdotal example - in another forum I had an argument with a guy who said the US healthcare system was the best in the world. I countered that it was one of the worst in modern industrial societies. His criteria was that people could get cutting edge treatment whenever they wanted and didn't have to wait. My argument was that 45 million people in the US couldn't get treatment at all (until it was an emergency, and then they often got substandard treatment that left them in insurmountable debt). Which of us was correct? It depends on what criteria you think are more important. |
-Chaloobi
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 09:03:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
What I am trying to reveal is that some level of social services is benficial to all and raises the standard of living by all the metrics commonly accepted.
Every county has/runs a company referred to as "common good" (allmännyttan) with the explicit purpose to provide rental apartments of good standard as cheaply as possible, with a very low profit. This is done in order to create competition in the rental market, and it will keep rents down in cases where other companies would set higher rents. This is good to ordinary people who can afford larger and better apartments than they otherwise would.
Alcohol above 3,5% (volume) like beer, wine, "high-octane" may only be bought from stores (solely focused on alcohol) belonging to the state controlled monopoly. For several reasons: Non-profit and high tax on alcohol to partly finance health care. Keeping alcohol prices high in order to reduce alcohol consumption (and thus reducing the number of people developing alcoholism and other alcohol related ailments, including traffic accidents) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 09:21:58 [Permalink]
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| Mab, what about taxes? |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 10:20:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
Mab, what about taxes?
Ehh... Let's not talk about that...
OK, I'm paying about 34% income tax.
And actually, I'm fine with that, because I know what I'm getting.
I live in a country where none have to starve, and can have roof over their heads. Where I can study to become whatever I want (provided I got the brains to do it, not the money).
I had a birth mark that looked alarmingly like skin-cancer, I went to the hospital and got it removed (and analyzed by a specialist) at the cost of $15 admission fee only.
Edit:
And then there's other taxes. I'm paying about $6 USD/gallon for petrol for my car (70% is taxes of various kinds). Most things you buy has taxes too, different depending on what you buy 12-25%. My car is taxed $280 that goes to keeping all roads (state controlled company in charge).
Energy (all kinds of it) is taxed too, about 30% of the electrical bill is taxes. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 09/22/2005 10:27:43 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 18:11:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
Mab, what about taxes?
Ehh... Let's not talk about that...
OK, I'm paying about 34% income tax.
And actually, I'm fine with that, because I know what I'm getting.
I live in a country where none have to starve, and can have roof over their heads. Where I can study to become whatever I want (provided I got the brains to do it, not the money).
I had a birth mark that looked alarmingly like skin-cancer, I went to the hospital and got it removed (and analyzed by a specialist) at the cost of $15 admission fee only.
Edit:
And then there's other taxes. I'm paying about $6 USD/gallon for petrol for my car (70% is taxes of various kinds). Most things you buy has taxes too, different depending on what you buy 12-25%. My car is taxed $280 that goes to keeping all roads (state controlled company in charge).
Energy (all kinds of it) is taxed too, about 30% of the electrical bill is taxes.
Well, that is not much more than we pay, and we don't even have a national health. And our roads are going to hell....
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 19:31:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
OK, I'm paying about 34% income tax.
Single person in the US with minimal deductions pays around 33-35% in federal income tax. Add in that some states have income tax of 5-10%.....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 00:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
Mab, what about taxes?
OK, I'm paying about 34% income tax.
And actually, I'm fine with that, because I know what I'm getting.
I pay about the same in income tax, the exact amount depends on which municipal you live in and how much you earn. In addition to that your employer pays an additional 30% which ought to be included, but never is. On capital gains we pay 30%, even if this is your share of a company's already taxed profit.
As Dr.Mabuse wrote we have a VAT that is 25% for most goods and services.
A few years ago a study showed that people with low income lost approximately 56% of their income to different kind of taxes. For people with high incomes it was more than 70%.quote:
And actually, I'm fine with that, because I know what I'm getting.
I would be if I got what I am supposed to get. But when I or my family has needed health care or help from the police that has not always been the case. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 04:54:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
Mab, what about taxes?
Ehh... Let's not talk about that...
OK, I'm paying about 34% income tax.
And actually, I'm fine with that, because I know what I'm getting.
I live in a country where none have to starve, and can have roof over their heads. Where I can study to become whatever I want (provided I got the brains to do it, not the money).
I had a birth mark that looked alarmingly like skin-cancer, I went to the hospital and got it removed (and analyzed by a specialist) at the cost of $15 admission fee only.
Edit:
And then there's other taxes. I'm paying about $6 USD/gallon for petrol for my car (70% is taxes of various kinds). Most things you buy has taxes too, different depending on what you buy 12-25%. My car is taxed $280 that goes to keeping all roads (state controlled company in charge).
Energy (all kinds of it) is taxed too, about 30% of the electrical bill is taxes.
Well, that is not much more than we pay, and we don't even have a national health. And our roads are going to hell....
Well, actually 34% is our highest income tax bracket. If you make over 250k per year or so, you'll pay that much. If you make 10 million a year, you'll pay that much. I don't know, but my guess is Dr. M makes less than that and those making 250k plus in his country are probably paying a much higher tax rate. Though I could be wrong on all counts . . . . |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 09/23/2005 04:55:37 |
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