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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2005 : 19:25:40
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I thought this article was pretty interesting.
quote:
Study Reveals How Your Brain Sleeps
When we're awake, different parts of the brain use chemicals and nerve cells to communicate constantly across the entire network, similar to the perpetual flow of data between all the different computers, routers and servers that make up the Internet.
In the deepest part of sleep, however, the various nodes of your cranial Internet all lose their connections.
"The brain breaks down into little islands that can't talk to one another," said study leader Giulio Tononi of the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
[...]
Consciousness has long mystified scientists. The new finding suggests that it depends on the brain's ability to integrate information, Tononi says.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/29/2005 19:42:31
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 20:25:18 [Permalink]
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| I thought I read somewhere that consciousness would never be explained by science....fortunately science doesn't know when to quit trying. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 21:05:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
I thought I read somewhere that consciousness would never be explained by science
It has always been in the category of "hard" questions.
Very interesting article. I find the topic of consciousness, in general, to be pretty fascinating.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 22:08:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I thought I read somewhere that consciousness would never be explained by science
It has always been in the category of "hard" questions.
I'm pretty sure he means he read it in one markie's posts.
Yeah, well I for one was disturbed the article never explicitly mentioned that non-material sources for consciousness have not yet been ruled out. I mean, that's just flat out naturalistic bias, isn't it? It is still quite possible that consciousness is caused by a non-material energy, or "soul," that leaves your body and zips around the cosmos whenever your body falls asleep.
I just know this intuitively btw. 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/29/2005 22:13:16 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 01:00:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm pretty sure he means he read it in one markie's posts.
Yeah, well I for one was disturbed the article never explicitly mentioned that non-material sources for consciousness have not yet been ruled out. I mean, that's just flat out naturalistic bias, isn't it? It is still quite possible that consciousness is caused by a non-material energy, or "soul," that leaves your body and zips around the cosmos whenever your body falls asleep.
Oh yeah, markie-logic. My bad.
I just read the Science paper, and yeah, they totally never mention that those pesky "non-material sources" have not been ruled out.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 20:12:44 [Permalink]
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Really guys, please don't make me have to visit the Community Forums to keep you in line. :o
HH it's nice to see your sense of intuition growing.
Consciousness remains unexplained, of course. Oh sure it is materially *correlated* to the integration of information sharing in the brain. I intuitively knew that, previously. :)
When massive computer networks which share information don't achieve consciousness, don't say I didn't tell you in advance.
Even when incredible quantum computers and their networks are realized, and yet even they don't achieve consciousness, please think of me.
Biological life and mind and consciousness depends on specific material dynamics and configuration in order to achive a working interface with the mind-spirit fields established by local-Deity, and which enable the phenomena of life and mind and consciousness to exist in the first place. Oh, the freebies you guys get.
Mark
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 20:34:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Biological life and mind and consciousness depends on specific material dynamics and configuration in order to achive a working interface with the mind-spirit fields established by local-Deity, and which enable the phenomena of life and mind and consciousness to exist in the first place.
I'm continuously amazed that you can say stuff like this with a straight face. "Mind-spirit fields?" Really?
Markie, you should start a new religion. You spout this tripe with such conviction that you're bound to suck in a few gullible, directionless people. They'll never question how you alone are able to "know" any of this. Not like us, of course.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/30/2005 20:36:21 |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 05:31:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Biological life and mind and consciousness depends on specific material dynamics and configuration in order to achive a working interface with the mind-spirit fields established by local-Deity, and which enable the phenomena of life and mind and consciousness to exist in the first place. Oh, the freebies you guys get.
Mark
I would like to read up on this Mark. Got any links to help explain what your claiming? |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 07:46:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Really guys, please don't make me have to visit the Community Forums to keep you in line. :o
HH it's nice to see your sense of intuition growing.
Consciousness remains unexplained, of course. Oh sure it is materially *correlated* to the integration of information sharing in the brain. I intuitively knew that, previously. :)
When massive computer networks which share information don't achieve consciousness, don't say I didn't tell you in advance.
Even when incredible quantum computers and their networks are realized, and yet even they don't achieve consciousness, please think of me.
Biological life and mind and consciousness depends on specific material dynamics and configuration in order to achive a working interface with the mind-spirit fields established by local-Deity, and which enable the phenomena of life and mind and consciousness to exist in the first place. Oh, the freebies you guys get.
Mark
And of course that's just random philosophical banter (and therefore, entirely subjective and not at all proved 'true' or 'false') until you can prove any of those things ('mind-spirit fields'? Wth is that?) exist. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 11:02:22 [Permalink]
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Markies odd ramblings aside, there is an element of truth to the statement that "consciousness can never be explained by science" (depending of what you mean by consciousness".
While behaviour can and will be explained by science there is an element to the idea of consciousness which is simply does not exist in the scientists conceptual system, this is precisely the idea of a subject.
As an example, scientifically we can explain that different colour are different wavelegths of light absorbed by the retina which sends various electrochemical signals to the brain which alters its structure accordingly and the the body follows suit. This cannot explain how these signals become the qualitative sensation of 'red', because there is nothing to percievein this relation.
Simply put: one cannot observe the act of observation. Wittgenstein made a rather nice analogy between the active subject and the eye, the eye defines the visual field but is not in the visual field.
This is certainly not to say that one can never build something which is conscious. People do it all the time; the tools required are two people of opposite genders and a couple of years of nurturing. Also food.
If this process can occur in nature, then it can be replicated under slightly different circustances by a scientist; perhaps in the form of a conscious computer. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 14:12:48 [Permalink]
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I thought I read somewhere that consciousness would never be explained by science....fortunately science doesn't know when to quit trying.
I was going to say pretty much what Subjectmatter just said. It isn't so much that consciousness can be explained by science, but that consciousness is impossible to identify (so far, at least.) We know other humans are conscious only because we assume since we're all the same animal, and we each know we have consciousness ourselves, that other people who behave like us must also be conscious.
To think about it in the abstract, we have to try to imagine aliens who evolved on a totally different planet in a totally different way from us, and then ponder if a.) something could behave as if it had a similar type of consciousness as humans, but somehow wasn't actually conscious, and b.) if something could be conscious but behave totally differently from the way humans act because of their consciousness.
Ray Kurtzweil deals with this issue in his book "The Age of Spritual Machines". He's convinced that AI will reach consciousness. He acknowledges that even if AI get to the point of behaving as if they are conscious, we won't be able to know if they really are conscious. But he also says that given that we can't know, we should act as if they are since it is ethically better to give a seemingly conscious being the benefit of the doubt. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/01/2005 14:13:31 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 14:23:19 [Permalink]
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That is interesting; along those lines, a year ago or so I read about a couple of researchers who were going to tackle the question with new technologies (real time PET scans etc.) and "Take the spooky stuff out of it"... I think they were near San Diego. That kind of technology has already had some facinating, if not astounding demonstrations (e.g. elsewhere, that monkey who "learned" to control a video game "hands-free"... incredible.) At the present rate of development, faster computers etc. should be neat to see what they have to say about "conciousness" in another 10 years or so.
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Ron White |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 08:06:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
markie even included smileys. He was joking, folks. Spoofing himself.
Sorry man. My bad. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 11:27:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
... even included smileys...
I gotta try those, problem is part of time I plug cell into laptop with no graphics for speed- can't see icons- might forget left from right, write something idiotic as joke ("At my Aryan Creationist meeting last night...") mean to hit "Smiley" and hit "Damn Serious" or "Angry" face. Or Satan might switchem' on me. I'll writem' down. |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 10/02/2005 11:36:57 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 12:14:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
markie even included smileys. He was joking, folks. Spoofing himself.
I don't think so, Dave. He included smileys after saying he found the thread and again after saying he knew the correlation existed "intuitively," which I took as merely acknowledging my previously voiced concerns with such claims. I didn't read markie as actually being facetious, however.
No smileys follow the second half of his post which, to be perfectly honest, sounds no different than anything he's asserted in the past. You may be right, perhaps he was spoofing himself, but there is nothing in his post currently to make me suspect you're correct.
I guess markie will have to clear the matter up himself.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/02/2005 12:16:12 |
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