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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/13/2005 : 13:32:57 [Permalink]
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You don't agree with me about what? You all keep saying the same thing over and over without actually answering the question.
Condescending? To call someone an "ass" and "obtuse" is condescending. To say that they have fears that they do not want to face is human and understandable. They are the ones reacting with insults and nonsense. I am asking a question. They keep repeating themselves and avoiding the question. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 13:47:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You don't agree with me about what? You all keep saying the same thing over and over without actually answering the question.
Condescending? To call someone an "ass" and "obtuse" is condescending. To say that they have fears that they do not want to face is human and understandable. They are the ones reacting with insults and nonsense. I am asking a question. They keep repeating themselves and avoiding the question.
We've answered your questions. Now your repetition of them are simply intended to provoke. We don't agree that soldiers fighting in illegal wars should be labeled criminals. So when you continuously ask "Why don't we label soldiers criminals?" The answer is "Because we don't find them to be so." As for your question, "Why don't we change the laws to make it so soldiers are considered criminals?" It's because we don't think they should be. We don't think soldiers can be compared to gangs, or any of the other nonsense you keep repeating. We don't agree with any of your premises. We don't consider soldiers to be morally culpable for simply fighting as they're ordered to. How can we be any clearer?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/13/2005 13:48:31 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 14:00:36 [Permalink]
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| I've said thank you and said I'll think about it all. That's enough. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 14:16:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
That wasn't a slam on you all to say that I'm not any smarter. That was an attempt to say that I will digest what you've said and attempt to learn. I understand your fear of talking about things you'd rather people kept quiet about, though.
Originally posted by pleco...
That's rather condescending, don't you think?
Good point, pleco, but it goes beyond rather condescending; it's extremely condescending.quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
You see, it never mattered if he lied about anything. Attacking other countries is a violation of international law except to remove an imminent threat. Even if there were any kind of realistic imminent threat, which was never even lied about, the next step after removing that threat, is to take the matter to the U.N. There is nothing in international law which allows someone to take over an entire country for no reason.
It matters to some of us. Have you written your Congressman or Senator with your concerns? Have you contacted those who are supposed to represent you and informed them of your desire to see the President, the military commanders, and/or even the soldiers properly accused, tried, and convicted for the crimes you believe they have committed?
I have written to mine and expressed my desire to see President Bush and his administration impeached for his crimes against us and against the rest of the world. As a citizen of the US that is not only our right, but as the employers of our public servants, it is our responsibility. I have, in fact, received replies from both my Senators and am awaiting a reply from my district's Congressman.
Now I challenge you, Gorgo, to stop making all this noise and take some positive action. All the whining and complaining you might do in these forums wouldn't make a whit of difference to the situation, even if you were correct in your belief about the soldiers being criminals. Write your Senators and your Congressmen, and tell them how you feel. If there are changes to come, they will only come through taking such action. Please post a copy of your message to your representatives right here. And when you get replies, please copy us in on those as well.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 14:49:44 [Permalink]
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Okay...Now that everybody seems to have declared a truce, what do y'all think was the worst crime of the Bush administration, or the one most easily proved in an impeachment hearing--That is if we had an honest and non-partisan Congress?
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 16:17:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
No one here takes the idea that Bush is a criminal seriously.
What planet are you living on? I can't think of a single person here that wouldn't support impeachment of Bush. Seriously, I think life in prison is too good for him. That someone hasn't removed him from the presidency already is to me puzzling (edit: by any means possible). Didn't the founding fathers of the United States say that it is the obligation of the people to rise against an evil oppressing ruler? Maybe I misunderstood something.
US military personnel, at least a few of them did refuse to go to Iraq. I read about one who took off to Canada. He's facing arrest and court-martial the instant he sets his foot on American soil.
Personally, I feel that people who bail the military forces if sent out on an illegal aggression should have immunity against court-martial for desertion. But that's just me, right now. I could possibly change my mind if someone presents a good argument why I'm wrong. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/13/2005 16:21:43 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 17:23:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim...
Okay...Now that everybody seems to have declared a truce, what do y'all think was the worst crime of the Bush administration, or the one most easily proved in an impeachment hearing--That is if we had an honest and non-partisan Congress?
Impeachment is a process by which a legislative body formally files charges against a high official of government. Generally these would be charges of criminal conduct, or "high crimes and misdemeanors". An impeachment isn't simply a vote of no confidence, like we don't want you to be president anymore, so you're fired. Articles of Impeachment must be submitted at the level of the House of Representatives, meaning one or more Congressmen must initiate the action. It is not initiated by the Senate. The Senate conducts the trial.
Huge quantities of articles and reports can be found on the web that show various reasons why George W. Bush should be impeached. Some just discusss the possibilities. Some explain technicalities. And some are even actual drafts of Articles of Impeachment written by legal experts.
This one is from September 30, 2004, even before George W. Bush finagled his way back into the White House to double his damage...quote:
Bush's Crimes Connected to Abu Ghraib...
But it's the tie to Abu Ghraib that I believe makes the president's actions impeachable. And that connection was made crystal clear last month by an independent panel formed by Rumsfeld, of all people. The panel, led by former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, determined that unlawful interrogation tactics "migrated" from Guantanamo Bay to Iraq. Most chillingly for the president, the so-called Schlesinger Report revealed that Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez specifically used Bush's February 7 directive to justify the use of dogs and other unlawful techniques at Abu Ghraib. "Interrogators and lists of techniques circulated from Guantanamo and Afghanistan to Iraq," Schlesinger wrote in the August 24 report.
There you have it. Not only did Bush break federal law but his actions led to Abu Ghraib, creating a mess that will haunt this country long after Bush has vacated the Oval Office.
In an article from January 17, 2003, before the official start of Bush's current fiasco in the Middle East, Francis A. Boyle, Professor of Law at the University of Illinois School of Law drew up a complete listing of Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush.
The crimes put forth in this document include suspending Habeas Corpus, violating the Posse Comitatus Act, authorizing unreasonable searches and seizures, and violating First Amendments rights of the free exercise of religion, freedom of speech, and peaceable assembly. Some other interesting angles are included in this document including this...quote:
Draft Impeachment Resolution Against President George W. Bush...
... has violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. U.S. soldiers in the Middle East are overwhelmingly poor White, Black, and Latino and their military service is based on the coercion of a system that has denied viable economic opportunities to these classes of citizens. Under the Constitution, all classes of citizens are guaranteed equal protection of the laws, and calling on the poor and minorities to fight a war for oil to preserve the lifestyles of the wealthy power elite of this country is a denial of the rights of these soldiers.
Another article suggests the "high crimes and misdemeanors" might include unmasking a CIA agent, lying to Congress, and the instigation of an illegal war which places the responsibility in George W. Bush's lap for the deaths of the American GIs who have died fighting in that war.quote:
Impeach Bush Now...
Mr. Bush now stands plausibly accused of the lofty crime of subverting the Constitution of the United States -- that is, lying to Congress about an imminent danger to the American people in order to collect enough votes to authorize his corporate/imperial project in Iraq.
Which crimes might be easiest to bring to trial?.. to convict? That's a good question. There is much legal foundation supporting the idea that dozens of George W. Bush's actions could be construed as crimes. The list goes on and on. Google finds 1.4 million hits with a search for: impeach George Bush
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 17:48:35 [Permalink]
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In my opinion, the Plame scandal has the best chance of leading to an impeachment. Outing a CIA agent is serious stuff, and it looks to go all the way up to the veep at least.
Next is the DeLay fundraising scandal. Depending who is caught in the net and how loudly they sing, quite a few big name repugs might go down in flames. I think this has less of a chance only because anyone who is sentenced knows all they have to do is keep their mouth shut and Bush will pardon them at the end of his term.
We'll see. I hope something happens to bring this administration to justice.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 17:56:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
Google finds 1.4 million hits with a search for: impeach George Bush
Putting the phrase in quotes reduces the number to just 74,400. Adding his middle initial takes it down to just 47,500.
Still a lot, it's just tough to guage Google searches when they're not specific. Without the quotes, one could easily be getting results which are works of fiction about a rose farmer named George who's watching TV news about calls for Nixon's impeachment three decades ago.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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swpalmer
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 22:33:21 [Permalink]
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Hi, I'm new here. This was a very frustrating thread to read because of the lack of effective communication. However I will try to answer Gorgo's "WHY?"
In most cases a soldier does not have the capacity to determine that the war is illegal, so he is not held accountable if it is. That's why.
Consider this hypothetical situation: I tell you to flip a switch on the wall. It looks like an ordinary light switch. You flip the switch and the mechanism it engages kills a man. I knew it would. There is no way that you could have know that it would kill a man. Who get charged with murder? Me or you? Now of course if you had checked blueprints and schematics and followed all the wiring to the electric chair in the other room (or whatever) you would clearly have known that flipping the switch would have killed a man. So should you be tried for murder? No, because it is not reasonable to expect you to question my motive to such a degree that you would investigate that switch so thoroughly before flipping it.
A soldier often cannot be aware of all the information that is available to the people giving the orders. That is why they can fight in an illegal war without being considered criminals. Because it is unreasonable to place the burden of knowing if the war is illegal or not upon them.
I hope I helped, Gorgo. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 22:48:32 [Permalink]
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Actually if Gorgo would recognize that the US has not abrogated is sovereignty to the UN, he would realize that there is not an international law that has been broken, because that law is non-existent. Unless the US has signed a treaty that states that it will not act to declare war without approval of the UN. But I don't recall that it has. Therefore, the war itself is not illegal. While negating the legality issue, it does nothing to address the lack of ethical reasons for declaring war in this instance.
But then again, per Gorgo, I'm one of those criminals because I served during Desert Sheild/Storm. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 04:27:27 [Permalink]
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I didn't say anyone was a criminal except for George Bush. I did almost say that I was, but clarified that later. I am part of a corrupt and criminal system. As such, it is my responsibility to do what I can to change it. Yes, I've written my Congressmen and Senators. But I then realized that they are not working for me, so why would they care what I have to say?
As far as the conversation here, just look at Humbert's and Dancer's circular comments and you'll see there has been no conversation. I can quote Humbert almost exactly from memory. "We do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them criminals." And Dancer, (not an exact quote either) "We can't expect soldiers to know the law. If the head of state tells them to do something, then what they do is legal. Unless, of course, he tells them to do something illegal, then they must refuse."
Trish, the United States is part of the UN, it is a signatory to many other treaties which are made the law of the land by article six of the Constitutiton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution
As my earlier link states, the UN Charter does not allow (unless it's Israel or the U.S. or Britain) one nation to simply attack another nation as the U.S. has done repeatedly, and of course as it did in the first Gulf War. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 04:32:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
I hope I helped, Gorgo.
That is a polite response, so I will continue. Your argument is much like Dancer's. We can't expect soldiers to know the law. It may be that at this point, soldiers do not know the law, and that would mean that most people would not favor strong punishment against people who are truly ignorant of the law, but most people (not necessarily me) would say that someone who broke the law, broke the law. Now, some people here don't want me to use the word criminal to talk about someone who has broken the law. Maybe there's a better word.
However, is that a situation that we want? Do we really want to say that our soldiers don't know what the law is? They're out there possibly bombing water plants and electric plants and "accidentally" killing non-combatants (as if it were good to attack people who would be inclined to defend themselves) and they don't know why and they don't know if what they are doing could have been avoided and they don't know even if it's illegal? Is that something that we want to promote? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 04:35:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
What planet are you living on?
We're all talking about it as though we were talking about some breach of etiquette or something. Hundreds of thousands of people have died, millions injured, millions of dollars wasted on the U.S. attack on the people of Iraq.
This is murder. Our "representatives" are complicit or afraid to call it murder. Half the country is complicit, most of the country thinks it should continue.
You tell me what planet would allow such a thing? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/14/2005 04:50:22 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 06:59:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
As far as the conversation here, just look at Humbert's and Dancer's circular comments and you'll see there has been no conversation. I can quote Humbert almost exactly from memory. "We do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them criminals." And Dancer, (not an exact quote either) "We can't expect soldiers to know the law. If the head of state tells them to do something, then what they do is legal. Unless, of course, he tells them to do something illegal, then they must refuse."
Exactly wrong, Gorgo. But you need to be right about it, so, whatever tickles your fancy.
It is a vast amount of diference between what you report I said and the premise I actually put out.
What I put out is the following
1) There are a set of crimes enumerated by the Geneva Convention
2) US military personell are taught about the Geneva Convention and what constitutes a war crime
3) As long as the conduct of the soldier conforms to the Geneva Convention, that soldier does not commit a crime
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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