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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2005 : 07:09:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What planet are you living on?
We're all talking about it as though we were talking about some breach of etiquette or something. Hundreds of thousands of people have died, millions injured, millions of dollars wasted on the U.S. attack on the people of Iraq.
Appeal to pity. Wars kill people. Deal with it.
quote:
This is murder. Our "representatives" are complicit or afraid to call it murder. Half the country is complicit, most of the country thinks it should continue.
We call it war. You call it murder. And most believe it was not justified, but we've made the mess and now we are obligated to fix it.
quote:
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You tell me what planet would allow such a thing?
The kid guns the gas, the car starts to swerve
Heads for a semi truck, jumps the curb
Truck hits a Big Boy in the Shoney's parking lot
And flies through the air takes out the bank clock
Clock strikes a light pole, transformer sparks
Lines go down, town goes dark
Waitress calls the cops, says she saw it all
Swears a giant alien has landed at the mall
Cops ring up the mayor says there's panic in the streets
"We hate to wake you up but we can't find the chief"
Mayor says "Use your head if he ain't in his car
He's hiding from his wife, down at Smokey's Bar"
Cause and effect, chain of events
All of the chaos makes perfect sense
When you're spinning round, things come undone
Welcome to Earth third rock from the Sun
(Thanks to Joe Diffie) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/14/2005 07:12:29 |
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swpalmer
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 08:47:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That is a polite response, so I will continue. Your argument is much like Dancer's. We can't expect soldiers to know the law.
No, that is not what I said. I said we can't expect soldiers to know that their superiors are breaking the law, in the specific case of being told that they are at war and should therefore do their job. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 08:52:30 [Permalink]
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| And why can't soldiers understand the law? Are they stupid? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 08:54:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo:
However, is that a situation that we want? Do we really want to say that our soldiers don't know what the law is? They're out there possibly bombing water plants and electric plants and "accidentally" killing non-combatants (as if it were good to attack people who would be inclined to defend themselves) and they don't know why and they don't know if what they are doing could have been avoided and they don't know even if it's illegal? Is that something that we want to promote?
On the whole, the answer is it yes. You can't have an effective military if it is essentially ruled from the bottom up. Imagine a military that gives orders from the top and then has to wonder if the troops will carry out those orders. A military where troops will consider the legal ramifications of every order, no matter what the orders are. The troops should be aware of the Geneva Conventions and know that an order to kill civilians as primary military targets is illegal and unjustifiable. They should know that rape and plunder is illegal. Etc. But to allow them to question every order simply wouldn't work. There really are legitimate cases when orders should not be followed. And the troops should be educated in what constitutes an illegal order. And they are, I believe. Beyond that, forget about it. An illegal war does not mean the orders to fight, or take out military targets that may cause the death of some civilians are illegal from the troops point of view, as has been said over and over in this thread.
Simply put, Gorgo, you could not have an effective military if it was up to the troops to consider the legal ramifications of every order before they carry their mission. An effective military cannot be run on democratic principals. It simply wouldn't work.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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swpalmer
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:17:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
And why can't soldiers understand the law? Are they stupid?
I never said they don't understand the law - you are the one saying that. I said that in this case there is no clear way for them to tell that their superiors are BREAKING the law. They can UNDERSTAND the law perfectly well -- that doesn't mean that they KNOW that the law is being broken because they are confident that they have ALL of the facts.
That being said, sometimes the law is hard to understand - that is one of the reasons that we have lawyers in the first place. Not understanding the law does not imply that someone is "stupid". Do YOU fully understand ALL law? If you don't, does that mean you are stupid?
As others have pointed out there has been no RULING that the war is illegal, and therefore, it is more reasonable for the soldiers to assume that the war is legal, given the position they are in if they are to assume incorrectly. It is reasonable for the soldiers to let experts decide if the war is illegal and issue a ruling before they take the tremendous risk to themselves involved with disobeying orders. |
| Edited by - swpalmer on 10/14/2005 09:22:04 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:18:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Simply put, Gorgo, you could not have an effective military if it was up to the troops to consider the legal ramifications of every order before they carry their mission. An effective military cannot be run on democratic principals. It simply wouldn't work.
Well put. Thank you. Some of the others tried so say that now I see, but didn't put it as well, or I just didn't understand it as well.
But this is not every order. This is clearly a violation of international law. Troops that defy the order to attack a country in violation of international law are not protected by law. Why? This is not every soldier questioning every order, this is a big order. Go to Iraq, where you will take part in an illegal invasion.
This is not questioning shoot here or bomb here, this is the big question.
Again, I appreciate someone that doesn't need to get personal or tell me how anti-american I am for asking questions. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:45:08 [Permalink]
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| If the U.N. had the power, which they don't, to issue some kind of binding resolution against the U.S. then in your mind should a soldier be recognized as in violation of international law if that soldier cooperates with this illegal action? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:46:08 [Permalink]
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http://www.un.org/law/ilc/texts/nurnberg.htm
Principles of International Law Recognized in the Charter of the Nürnberg Tribunal and in the Judgment of the Tribunal*
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 09:47:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
[Appeal to pity. Wars kill people. Deal with it.
Appeal to reality. A lawless society is not a cool place to be. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 10:23:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
quote:
Simply put, Gorgo, you could not have an effective military if it was up to the troops to consider the legal ramifications of every order before they carry their mission. An effective military cannot be run on democratic principals. It simply wouldn't work.
Well put. Thank you. Some of the others tried so say that now I see, but didn't put it as well, or I just didn't understand it as well.
But this is not every order. This is clearly a violation of international law. Troops that defy the order to attack a country in violation of international law are not protected by law. Why? This is not every soldier questioning every order, this is a big order. Go to Iraq, where you will take part in an illegal invasion.
This is not questioning shoot here or bomb here, this is the big question.
Again, I appreciate someone that doesn't need to get personal or tell me how anti-american I am for asking questions.
What is a big question? How do you define one? This only leads to more and more problems of more and more vague definitions.
How much evidence of a country having weapons of mass destruction and planning to use them against us do you need before it is a legal war? How is it the troops fault if the evidence they hear of is flawed?
Determing whether a war is legal or not is a very complex thing. It requires you to consider tons and tons of information, then whether the information you thought you had at the start was correct or not, and if not, were there those who knew it was not.
It is not "If A, then the war is legal, otherwise it is illegal." |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 10/14/2005 10:28:37 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 10:34:01 [Permalink]
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| There is nothing even remotely legal about this war. Had there been some evidence, which there wasn't, of an imminent threat, then it might be reasonable to make that argument if all the U.S. did was attempt to remove the imminent threat. They went way beyond that and always intended to. That is all that any country is allowed to do under these circumstances. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 10:36:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Appeal to pity. Wars kill people. Deal with it.
They're just a bunch of worthless Ay-rabs, right? Let God sort 'em out, right?
I knew there was someone here who had little concern for human life but didn't remember who it was. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 11:23:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Appeal to pity. Wars kill people. Deal with it.
They're just a bunch of worthless Ay-rabs, right? Let God sort 'em out, right?
I knew there was someone here who had little concern for human life but didn't remember who it was.
[/quote]
And now we have it. Gorgo decides that since he cannot get people to agree with him through his polyannish behavior, he'll just settle on intimating they are racist.
No, Gorgo. It is the nature of WAR to KILL people. The race of the people in that war is unimportant. If Germany attacked Italy, people would still die and the soldiers would still be held blameless for following orders that did not instruct them to commit war crimes. Same thing if Canada attacked the United States.
Since you have no grip on the nature of authoritarian systems and no wish to view people who acknowledge the nature of the world as anything else than having no regard for life, I'll leave you to your anarchist fanasyland.
Just because life isn't fair doesn't mean I don't have empathy. I just don't go to the extreme you do of self-flagellation and wanting to regard soldiers as criminals. Chomski would be proud of his little robot. Well done. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 11:30:21 [Permalink]
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| In addition to apathy about crime, you are illiterate. I have not said that soldiers are criminals. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 12:01:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[Appeal to pity. Wars kill people. Deal with it.
Appeal to reality. A lawless society is not a cool place to be.
[/quote]
And presicely what law have they broken? The military is held to a different standard than normal citizenry. Soldiers are only liable for Principal VI (b) and (c). (a) applies to leaders of nations.
Art. 99. No prisoner of war may be tried or sentenced for an act which is not forbidden by the law of the Detaining Power or by international law, in force at the time the said act was committed. -- Geneva Convention of 1949
It is not illegal for a soldier to kill an enemy soldier in combat. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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