|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2005 : 04:12:35 [Permalink]
|
quote:
And history has shown that if one person says something, and a whole bunch of people don't understand, the problem usually exists with the one person making the statement.
So, if everyone thinks a certain way then that group must be right? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2005 04:13:12 |
 |
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 04:50:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgoquote:
And history has shown that if one person says something, and a whole bunch of people don't understand, the problem usually exists with the one person making the statement.
So, if everyone thinks a certain way then that group must be right?
No, but if you send a message and nobody is able to decode it, the error is probably yours. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 05:18:53 [Permalink]
|
And what part of what I said do you not understand? When you didn't understand it, did you start calling me an ass and obtuse? Or did you either decide that it wasn't worth your trouble to understand or did you ask questions?
I also have been around on the internet long enough to know that, for instance, that many people do not read what is written. They read through the ghosts in their own head. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/12/2005 05:20:09 |
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 05:36:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...many people do not read what is written. They read through the ghosts in their own head.
I know that, but thanks for the example. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 05:42:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
...many people do not read what is written. They read through the ghosts in their own head.
I know that, but thanks for the example.
[/quote]
Yes, I forgot the example, sorry. Supposed to be at work. You know what I'm saying, though. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 05:59:31 [Permalink]
|
I dunno, but it seems to me that the legality of a war is all according to who started it and who finished it. The victor, right or wrong, writes the history, and the grunts who fought in it on either side had no say in the matter, and are therefore innocent unless charged with specific crimes. Thus it has pretty much always been.
If Hitler had won WW-II, Eisnhower and Truman and Churchill, et al, would probably have been in the defendents dock and concievably executed or at least imprisoned shortly afterward, not so?
But Hitler was a meglomanical fuckup, and in the case of Iraq, history, if not the courts, is not going to treat Mr. Bush, our current, meglomanical fuckup, gently.
Yet, through it all, the grunt is innocent and rightly so. He has nothing to do with starting anything and is virtually indentured to his service. The laws of war, if indeed there really are such things, reflect that.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 06:28:14 [Permalink]
|
I'm not taking a side, but one could argue that in a volunteer army the "grunt" is more accountable. Especially if said volunteer signs up AFTER the illegal war is started.
However, since no governing body has pronounced the current war illegal, I don't see how anyone could be held accountable (below the executive level) since the war was technically "legal" at the time they signed up/started fighting. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
| Edited by - pleco on 10/12/2005 06:32:31 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 06:36:33 [Permalink]
|
| "International Law" is also written by the powerful. What it generally means is that things have to go the way the U.S. says it should. Only then do we get to talk about international law. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 07:54:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I have stated exactly what the question was, and exactly the information behind the question.
The question is:
Why are soldiers who take part in an illegal war not considered criminals.
The answers:
1. It's not an illegal war.
Response: That's your opinion. I reference the link placed earlier in the thread. Assuming that it is an illegal war, why aren't soldiers who participate in it considered criminals.
2. The UCMJ and Supreme Court (or you disagree that international law does not consider them criminals) do not agree that they are criminals.
Response: The question isn't are they considered criminals, the question is why aren't they considered criminals.
3. They aren't considered criminals because then no one would fight a war.
Response: That's a reasonable response, but all that's saying is that there is no international body to decide such a thing. Why isn't there? Because the United States doesn't want it. Why? Because the people don't want it because they are misinformed, or there is just no reason for it. Which means, basically, that they don't consider participants in an illegal war criminals. Why is that?
You missed one. Mine.
4) They are not considered criminals due to the Geneva Convention of 1946. They have not violated international law by being a part of the military in any type of war legal or illegal. International law only holds the country's leadership responsible for an illegal war. For instance, when the Iraqi government ordered the invasion of Kuwait, their soldiers were treated as prisoners of war, not criminals. The common soldier, although he was prosecuting an illegal war, was held blameless by the Geneva Convention for following legal orders of his command to prosecute the war. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 07:59:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I'm not taking a side, but one could argue that in a volunteer army the "grunt" is more accountable. Especially if said volunteer signs up AFTER the illegal war is started.
However, since no governing body has pronounced the current war illegal, I don't see how anyone could be held accountable (below the executive level) since the war was technically "legal" at the time they signed up/started fighting.
One could argue this, however, international law is not written that way. The Geneva Convention states that soldiers following legal orders (the legality of the war is immaterial to the definition of a legal order) cannot be judged criminals. Only if they commit acts defined as war crimes (rape, torture, genocide, etc), are they deemed criminals. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 08:01:32 [Permalink]
|
I included that in my response. You are saying, again, that they are not considered criminals. Why is that? Your answer? They are not considered criminals by international law. Why are they not considered criminals by international law. I disagree with your opinion of international law, but that is immaterial to the question. Why isn't it?
If it's murder, it's murder. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 08:56:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I included that in my response. You are saying, again, that they are not considered criminals. Why is that? Your answer? They are not considered criminals by international law. Why are they not considered criminals by international law. I disagree with your opinion of international law, but that is immaterial to the question. Why isn't it?
If it's murder, it's murder.
Then by your stance all wars are inherently murder.
Wars are fought by militaries. The three basic functions of militaries are to kill people, break things, and occupy territory.
The Geneva Convention of 1946 holds soldiers blameless for acts of war (sinking ships, killing members of opposing militaries, inadvertent killing of civilians, blowing things up, trespassing, etc.) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 09:09:02 [Permalink]
|
There's a practical side to all of this: how the hell does a country or a coalition, upon winning a war of questionable legality, process hundreds of thousands of instant war criminals including noncombatant, but equally guilty, clerical and hospital staff, and military units posted elsewhere? Short of simply lining them all up and executing them, that is.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 09:58:39 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I included that in my response. You are saying, again, that they are not considered criminals. Why is that? Your answer? They are not considered criminals by international law. Why are they not considered criminals by international law. I disagree with your opinion of international law, but that is immaterial to the question. Why isn't it?
If it's murder, it's murder.
Gorgo, it's because most people do not think a soldier killing another solider in a war, even an illegal one, is murder. In the end, all laws reflect the morality of the people who make them. Unfortunately for you, most of humanity does not agree with you on this issue.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 10:22:12 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Then by your stance all wars are inherently murder.
Again, I am asking a question, not taking a stance. If my disagreement with you on what Nuremberg stated is a stance, then all that is saying is that soldiers have a responsibility to defy illegal orders. Being told to attack another country in the way that Iraq was attacked would seem to be illegal. That is not necessarily all wars, then, just illegal wars. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
