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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2005 : 10:23:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
There's a practical side to all of this: how the hell does a country or a coalition, upon winning a war of questionable legality, process hundreds of thousands of instant war criminals including noncombatant, but equally guilty, clerical and hospital staff, and military units posted elsewhere? Short of simply lining them all up and executing them, that is.
Most crimes are not prosecuted. That does not mean that they are not crimes. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 10:37:20 [Permalink]
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Lets extrapolate your logic Gorgo.
If soldiers are criminals for fighting in a war then why aren't the people that pay for their weapons, armor, food, etc, criminals as well?
You protest the war, but if you are a US taxpayer you are funding those soldiers. If they are doing something illegal, as you say, then you are guilty of a crime as well.
By your logic every person in the US is a criminal.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 10/12/2005 10:37:45 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:14:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Then by your stance all wars are inherently murder.
Again, I am asking a question, not taking a stance. If my disagreement with you on what Nuremberg stated is a stance, then all that is saying is that soldiers have a responsibility to defy illegal orders. Being told to attack another country in the way that Iraq was attacked would seem to be illegal. That is not necessarily all wars, then, just illegal wars.
Quite a subjective definition of murder. A military fulfilling it's primary function is only murder if the war is deemed illegal. By who's definition of illegal, Gorgo?
While you may consider it murder, most people don't. It is not wrong for militaries to kill one another. They exist solely for that purpose primarily. People who join militaries know they may be ordered to kill people. And the protections granted by the Geneva Convention is unrelated to Nuermberg. Those trials said that "following orders" was no excuse to following orders to commit war crimes. Simply fighting in a war is not a war crime, Gorgo.
Illegal war does not equate to illegal order as defined by the Geneva Convention. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/12/2005 11:16:51 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:47:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Lets extrapolate your logic Gorgo.
If soldiers are criminals for fighting in a war then why aren't the people that pay for their weapons, armor, food, etc, criminals as well?
You protest the war, but if you are a US taxpayer you are funding those soldiers. If they are doing something illegal, as you say, then you are guilty of a crime as well.
By your logic every person in the US is a criminal.
I am funding a crime. Yes, I am part of the crime. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:48:31 [Permalink]
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| Simply fighting in a war, by your definition, is not a crime. Why isn't fighting in an illegal war a crime? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:18:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Simply fighting in a war, by your definition, is not a crime. Why isn't fighting in an illegal war a crime?
Because it is still a war. In war, it is fully expected that people will die and standing militaries will kill one another. And also, I said "war crime", Gorgo. Not merely "crime". |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/12/2005 12:19:48 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:52:55 [Permalink]
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This is like trying to talk to Storm about "energy".
How many times does it need to be said to you, Gorgo, that the act of fighting in a war, by individual soldiers, IS NOT A CRIME.
You repeatedly fail to comprehend that it is not the place of soldiers to determine the legality/illegality of a war.
Soldiers fighting in this war, or ANY war, regardless of that war's legalaity, are NOT COMMITING A CRIME UNLESS THEY BREAK THE LAWS OF WARFARE.
Heads of state, chief exectutives, etc... are responsible for answering questions concerning the legality of wars, and are accountable for illegal wars. NOT individual soldiers.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:56:37 [Permalink]
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Also, you continue to state, as if it were some agreed upon conclusion, that the war in Iraq is an illegal one.
Please provide documentation that shows who ruled this war illegal and upon what grounds it was ruled illegal and upon what authority it was ruled illegal.
Until you have that, your "questions" are considered "loaded". In the style of "have you stopped beating your wife?".
You are basing your questions on a false premise. I think Dave_W already pointed that out to you though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:56:56 [Permalink]
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That's fine that you think that, Dude, but that's not the question. The question is, why isn't it considered a crime?
You fail repeatedly to understand the question. We can agree or disagree, but it is clearly not considered a crime, at least in the U.S. Why isn't it? Bombing hospitals and water plants is far worse to do for no good reason than to rob liquor stores. Why is it not considered a crime? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:00:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by filthy
There's a practical side to all of this: how the hell does a country or a coalition, upon winning a war of questionable legality, process hundreds of thousands of instant war criminals including noncombatant, but equally guilty, clerical and hospital staff, and military units posted elsewhere? Short of simply lining them all up and executing them, that is.
Most crimes are not prosecuted. That does not mean that they are not crimes.
Indeed. But I am reminded that the British and the Hessians and their officers were allowed to go home rather than face proscecution, in some cases well deserved proscecution (the summery hanging of Nathen Hale comes to mind) after the American Revolution, and no one was howling for King George's head.
I think we are nit-picking definitions, here. One man's war criminal is another's national hero, and which side of the argument is correct?
Neither, I suspect.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:01:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
We can agree or disagree, but it is clearly not considered a crime, at least in the U.S. Why isn't it? Bombing hospitals and water plants is far worse to do for no good reason than to rob liquor stores. Why is it not considered a crime?
Because most humans do not consider it criminal to kill their enemies or destroy their facilities. Our laws are based on this sentiment. An attept is made to spare civilians, but collateral damage is considered acceptible. Soliders who fight as they are told are considered to be performing a job that serves the state, quite unlike mercenary gangs who serve no one but themselves. It is part of the job description of soldiers that we do not hold them morally accountable if they do their duty and serve their country in good faith.
The exception, as has been noted, is if they are asked to commit war crimes--the crimes specifically agreed upon through international treaties. Only then is it acceptible for them to abandon their duty to country.
No country wants to sign a treaty which impunes soldiers for the illegal actions of their leaders. The reasons for this should be obvious.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/12/2005 13:16:00 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:13:25 [Permalink]
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| All citizens are part of the war machine and not innocent....this logic sounds vaguely familiar. I would say then that anyone who feels this way should turn themselves in to the UN and ask to be prosecuted. Put your money where your mouth is. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:39:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
All citizens are part of the war machine and not innocent....this logic sounds vaguely familiar. I would say then that anyone who feels this way should turn themselves in to the UN and ask to be prosecuted. Put your money where your mouth is.
My Congressman is a former FBI agent. I've tried to tell him to get someone to arrest himself and me, but he has failed to do so. If you think someone from the U.N. will come and arrest me, give me their name and number and I'll call them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:58:40 [Permalink]
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Well, since no governing body is willing to prosecute you, I guess your only recourse is to try yourself. After you pronounce sentence, you could admit yourself into a mental institution (since a prison won't take you) for the duration.
Of course, once you get out, you better not get a job or buy anything, otherwise you will have committed the crime again. Therefore you must remain homeless, jobless, and you cannot accept any gratis that was made by the war machine.
Or we can agree that the civilians being implicated as war criminals because they pay taxes is a silly concept and move on. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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