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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2005 : 14:03:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
That's fine that you think that, Dude, but that's not the question. The question is, why isn't it considered a crime?
You fail repeatedly to understand the question. We can agree or disagree, but it is clearly not considered a crime, at least in the U.S. Why isn't it? Bombing hospitals and water plants is far worse to do for no good reason than to rob liquor stores. Why is it not considered a crime?
This is becoming polyannish.
I'll try to simplify things for you.
War = things get blowed up and people die.
Soldier = tool by which governments blow things up and kill people.
Calling soldiers who fight in illegal wars criminals = blaming the hammer for striking the nail.
Calling national leaders criminals for starting illegal wars = blaming the carpenter for striking the nail with the hammer.
Also, hospitals and water plants are not usually targeted. Ordinance goes off course some times and strikes unintended civilian targets. Now, if you could prove that the person dropping the ordinance was aiming for the hospital, it would be a war crime and punishable under the Geneva Convention.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 14:03:29 [Permalink]
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Actually, as I said, your concept of what to do with criminals is not the same as mine, so that conversation goes off on a different tangent.
As I said, just because these people might be considered as criminals, and I'm not saying that they should be, does not mean that I am promoting their prosecution or their punishment. You need to read the words on the page. You're funny, but what you are saying is not relevant to the conversation. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 14:07:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Actually, as I said, your concept of what to do with criminals is not the same as mine, so that conversation goes off on a different tangent.
As I said, just because these people might be considered as criminals, and I'm not saying that they should be, does not mean that I am promoting their prosecution or their punishment. You need to read the words on the page. You're funny, but what you are saying is not relevant to the conversation.
Why should we use your definition of "criminal?" Why call them criminals if we have no intention of treating them as such? How about we just don't call them criminals in the first place? Why are you playing this rhetorical game?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 16:39:17 [Permalink]
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A couple of declarative sentences...quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I am funding a crime. Yes, I am part of the crime.
...and I see the puzzle pieces falling together. The way I understand you now, Gorgo, is that when you ask why the troops fighting in Iraq aren't considered to be criminals, you're really asking, "I [Gorgo] think the war in Iraq is illegal, and I think that soldiers fighting in an illegal war are criminals, why is it that most people seem to disagree with one or both of my premises?"
The reason I understand your question this way is that you've finally acceded some factual information. You believe yourself to be part of a crime. This factual information, from a legal point-of-view, is currently incorrect. We don't know that there is a crime being committed right now.
You may feel that what's happening rises to the level of a crime, but that's just an emotional argument that has no place in a discussion of legalities. Despite your obviously passionate appeal, this country (and several others) recognize that one is innocent until proven guilty. Even the President gets this benefit of a doubt, no matter how much of a shitheel he is (he also, due to the necessarily secret nature of what led to the war, has a massive amount of plausible deniability against the argument that he knew that the reasons he gave for the war were false - convicting someone in his position of lying is very difficult).
And so, currently, international law (as has been mentioned several times already) does not recognize soldiers fighting in an illegal war to be criminals. Nor does any international governing body appear ready to declare the war itself to be a crime. There have been no indictments, even.
The answer to your question is that simple: people don't agree with you, Gorgo, because your premises don't stand up to any legal test. They may agree (like I do) that Bush is probably guilty of illegally attacking Iraq, but they may (like I do) still disagree that holding the soldiers themselves responsible for their orders is irrational when there is no clear criminal intent in the orders. But, because your question requires people to agree to both premises, most people won't agree.
Even if we take Bush and Iraq out of the question, and just ask, "should soldiers fighting in any illegal war be considered criminals just for fighting in an illegal war," I'd still have to say "no" because the troops cannot be expected to be well-enough informed to make a reasonable decision as to whether or not the hypothetical war is legal. The troops aren't lawyers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 16:54:40 [Permalink]
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I'm kind of surprised to find nine pages devoted to the question of soldiers being criminals. While I agree with the majority opinion here, I find that we've all seemed to have forgotten the very real question about the criminal actions of this administration. If I had time, I could rattle off quite a long list of Executive actions requiring a fair and balanced investigation.
The evidence is there and we're talking about something completely unrelated?
Impeach Bush, not the troops! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 22:28:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim...
Impeach Bush, not the troops!
Apparently that's becoming a much more widespread sentiment.quote:
Americans Favor Bush's Impeachment If He Lied about Iraq...
By a margin of 50% to 44%, Americans want Congress to consider impeaching President Bush if he lied about the war in Iraq, according to a new poll commissioned by AfterDowningStreet.org, a grassroots coalition that supports a Congressional investigation of President Bush's decision to invade Iraq in 2003.
The poll was conducted by Ipsos Public Affairs, the highly-regarded non-partisan polling company. The poll interviewed 1,001 U.S. adults on October 6-9.
The poll found that 50% agreed with the statement:
"If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."
44% disagreed, and 6% said they didn't know or declined to answer. The poll has a +/- 3.1% margin of error.
So write your representatives and let them know how you feel about this.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 00:23:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
I'm kind of surprised to find nine pages devoted to the question of soldiers being criminals. While I agree with the majority opinion here, I find that we've all seemed to have forgotten the very real question about the criminal actions of this administration. If I had time, I could rattle off quite a long list of Executive actions requiring a fair and balanced investigation.
The evidence is there and we're talking about something completely unrelated?
Impeach Bush, not the troops!
At last! A glimmer of light shining through the fog...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:01:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Gorgo, you have been challenged by Dave W. to find where in international law, it says that a solider fighting an illegal war is a crime. To my knowledge, you have not done so. Why?
Again, I have challenged you to read the words on the page. I have not said that it is. I have asked why we do not consider it a crime. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
The troops aren't lawyers.
So, gang members aren't lawyers, so they can't be held accountable for their actions.
You are right, I did not quite write what I meant about my own participation. I don't know that you and I are committing a crime myself, nor have I ever promoted the idea that soldiers are criminals. I am part of a corrupt system, and therefore have some responsibility for that. I am not, however, pulling a trigger. Before I pull a trigger, I want to know why. And you're telling me that people, about to slaughter thousands, do not have to know why, they just have to follow orders. Why does any of this make sense to you? I'm not saying you are wrong, I am asking why. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:08:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
it would be a war crime and punishable under the Geneva Convention.
It's polyannish to say that one should be more careful to avoid war than to avoid robbing a liquor store? Polyannish to say that an illegal war does far more damage than robbing a liquor store? Wow. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:10:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why are you playing this rhetorical game?
What word is better for people who violate the law? If I tell you to kill someone and you do, who is responsible for the murder? Just because George Bush is a president that doesn't make him any less of a criminal than anyone else that tells people to murder people. Why are the people who pull the trigger any less of a criminal than anyone else that pulls a trigger? I'm not saying they are, I'm asking the question. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:13:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
The evidence is there and we're talking about something completely unrelated?
Impeach Bush, not the troops!
It's not unrelated. No one here takes the idea that Bush is a criminal seriously. No one takes the idea that he is no different than any other criminal seriously. Hundreds of thousands of people have died because of the U.S. war against the people of Iraq, and people act like that would be okay with them if it happened to them. It's just war, after all. No one means any harm. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:17:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
This is like trying to talk to Storm about "energy".
Many people here talked to me the same way here when they were promoting this war. They said things like, "I've seen the evidence myself." Remember Garrette? He was sure that this was a holy war.
It is a crime. It was a crime to attack Afghanistan, it was a crime for Iraq to attack Kuwait it was a crime for the U.S. to attack Panama, it was a crime for the U.S. to attack Yugoslavia, these are crimes. People die and are injured and impoverished. Chaos often ensues to increase death and injury and impoverishment. You seem to take all that lightly. Why? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2005 : 04:47:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why are the people who pull the trigger any less of a criminal than anyone else that pulls a trigger?
Because they are not breaking any laws by doing so.
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