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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2005 : 01:51:09
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Does anybody actually believe this shit?
quote:
Fact Check: Bush Claims 10 Al Qaida Plots Disrupted
During this morning's speech President Bush made a noteworthy claim:
Overall, the United States and our partners have disrupted at least 10 serious Al Qaida terrorist plots since September the 11th, including three Al Qaida plots to attack inside the United States.
Not surprisingly, White House spokesman Scott McClellan was asked for more information. Here's what he said:
MCCLELLAN: Some of them are known publicly, like the capture of Jose Padilla and Iyman Faris. Jose Padilla, if you remember, was involved in plots involving a possibility of a dirty bomb. And Iyman Faris was someone who had been in contact with people like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and captured with plots looking at a — blowing up or destroying a New York bridge.
And then there are other incidents that are still classified.
So let's review what we know about the 10 incidents:
Bush has managed to back himself into a corner and is again trying to lie himself out of it. What ten plots and by whom?
Bush should come on these fora. He would make a nicely-fitting replacement for bigbrain.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2005 : 07:33:06 [Permalink]
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George W. Bush seems to be sparing no effort in getting himself an appointment with the highest yardarm. In case you've never heard of Jose Padilla, here's the skinny...quote:
NYCLU Files Appeals Brief in Support of Release of Jose Padilla...
On May 8, 2002, Jose Padilla, who is a US citizen, flew on a commercial airline from Pakistan to Chicago's O'Hare Airport where he was arrested by FBI agents executing a material witness arrest warrant. Padilla was then transferred to New York by FBI agents and housed in the Metropolitan Correctional Center's maximum security wing, under the control of the Bureau of Prisons and the United States Marshal Service for approximately one month. On Sunday, June 9, 2002, two days before a scheduled conference on Padilla's motion to vacate the material witness arrest warrant, the government informed the District Court that the President had issued an order designating Padilla an "enemy combatant," transferring his custody to the Secretary of Defense.
The Department of Defense, without notice to Padilla's attorney, seized Padilla and transported him to a high security military brig in South Carolina. Since then, Padilla has languished in military custody while his case has been before several courts, now entering the fifth court. Two of the courts, the federal appeals court for the Second Circuit and a federal district court in South Carolina, have ruled that Padilla is not an enemy combatant and must either be formally charged and tried in a civilian court -- or released. These courts have ruled against the detention of a United States citizen unless authorized by an Act of Congress, and Congress has not authorized military detention in this case.
Jose Padilla is one of an unknown number of Unites States citizens who George W. Bush has decided should have their constitutional rights revoked. For Bush to claim him as a point on the plus side of the war-of-terror score sheet is absolutely ludicrous. It is exclusively through the dictatorial powers of the mentally deranged president that Jose Padilla continues to be held in prison, for nearly three and a half years now, without charges, without trial, and without legal representation.
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 08:02:33 [Permalink]
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And as to the thwarted terror plot of Iyman Faris, this scary guy apparently provided cell phones, cash, and sleeping bags to al Qaeda. Sleeping bags, eh? Now there's some seriously dangerous terrorist tools, sleeping bags. I'm glad there aren't any of those in my closets or basement. I'd sure call the FBI and report it if I thought any of my neighbors had... *gasp*... sleeping bags!
From reading a couple articles about Iyman Faris, it looks like the guy was a greater threat to his own life and safety than he was to pretty much anyone else's.quote:
Alleged Terror Trucker Pulls Plea...
A man accused of plotting to topple New York's Brooklyn Bridge on orders from al Qaeda has asked to withdraw his guilty plea.
Iyman Faris, 34, pleaded guilty in May to charges that he provided sleeping bags, cell phones and cash to al Qaeda.
Authorities say Faris traveled to Pakistan and Afghanistan to carry out errands for the terrorist organization. He also met with Osama bin Laden and scouted U.S. sites for possible terrorist attacks, including a plan to take down the Brooklyn Bridge with tools called gas cutters that could burn through its cables, the government says.
Faris allegedly concluded that such a plan would be unlikely to succeed, and reported that back to al Qaeda.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 10:10:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
And as to the thwarted terror plot of Iyman Faris, this scary guy apparently provided cell phones, cash, and sleeping bags to al Qaeda. Sleeping bags, eh? Now there's some seriously dangerous terrorist tools, sleeping bags. I'm glad there aren't any of those in my closets or basement. I'd sure call the FBI and report it if I thought any of my neighbors had... *gasp*... sleeping bags!
From reading a couple articles about Iyman Faris, it looks like the guy was a greater threat to his own life and safety than he was to pretty much anyone else's.quote:
Alleged Terror Trucker Pulls Plea...
A man accused of plotting to topple New York's Brooklyn Bridge on orders from al Qaeda has asked to withdraw his guilty plea.
Iyman Faris, 34, pleaded guilty in May to charges that he provided sleeping bags, cell phones and cash to al Qaeda.
Authorities say Faris traveled to Pakistan and Afghanistan to carry out errands for the terrorist organization. He also met with Osama bin Laden and scouted U.S. sites for possible terrorist attacks, including a plan to take down the Brooklyn Bridge with tools called gas cutters that could burn through its cables, the government says.
Faris allegedly concluded that such a plan would be unlikely to succeed, and reported that back to al Qaeda.
It looks clear that he had terrorist ties to me. He gave money and cell phones to al Qaeda which are use to kill people and scouting sites for terrorist activities. At least this is what this article says. He looks pretty scary to me if this is true. What do you think we should do with him? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 10:53:40 [Permalink]
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Treat him and Padilla like any other criminals. Charge them -- conspiricy ought to do it -- try them, and let a jury decide. They are, after all, American citizens and there is nothing special about either.
'K, that's two of 'em. Where are the other eight?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 11:59:38 [Permalink]
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| I saw a really good DVD which I think was a BBC documentary program on the scare tactics topic. The whole terror threat while some components obviously exist is not some well run world wide terror establishment and Al Qaeda didn't really even exist until we made them news characters. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 12:59:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
It looks clear that he had terrorist ties to me.
That's not the point. Is arresting someone with "terrorist ties" the same thing as "disrupting" a "terrorist plot?" Only if the terrorists run with absolute minimum "staffing" and no redundancy. But if Atta was the "20th hijacker," then we know that the terrorists do have redundancy. Should we assume that this guy was the only person selling cell phones to these guys? Of course not.
It's as if the government raided the Ziploc headquarters, arrested a shop foreman, and then claimed to have made an effective assault within the "war on drugs." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 13:24:09 [Permalink]
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| Just a thought: if terrorists are 'enemy combatants', doesn't that mean that they are not criminals? |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 13:38:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Treat him and Padilla like any other criminals. Charge them -- conspiricy ought to do it -- try them, and let a jury decide. They are, after all, American citizens and there is nothing special about either...
Like in a democracy. I like that idea.  |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 20:26:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
It looks clear that he had terrorist ties to me. He gave money and cell phones to al Qaeda which are use to kill people and scouting sites for terrorist activities. At least this is what this article says. He looks pretty scary to me if this is true. What do you think we should do with him?
If Iyman Faris has been found, through legal due process, as a citizen of the United States, to have committed a crime, then let due process follow its proper course. If that proper course involves a fine or imprisonment, then carry through with the appropriate sentence prescribed by law, of course.
But the point is, as has been mentioned by a few others here, his arrest and conviction is in no way tantamount to "disrupting a serious Al Qaeda terrorist plot." Iyman Faris was apparently arrested several months after he had already abandoned the pursuit of a dumb idea, not a plan or a plot. Oh, and cell phones don't kill people, people kill people.
Terrorists such as George W. Bush and his band of deranged accomplices have a clear objective of scaring people. They throw spiders and snakes. Some people find the spiders and snakes scary. The terrorists have beat those fearful people. Iyman Faris is small potatoes. He's not the least bit scary to those of us who haven't been defeated by terrorism.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2005 : 15:23:33 [Permalink]
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In the democracy that I'm proud to live in, it is illegal for the military to act in civilian policing.
The Swedish SÄPO (security police, catching foreign spies in the country and keeping track of terrorists, foreign and domestic. I'm not well versed in American orgnizations but to me it sounds more like NSA than FBI) is entirely civilian with no connection to military counterpart.
The law that forbids the Swedish military to act as police civilian matters is fairly new, after several people were gunned down during a peaceful demonstration in 1931.
But then, Sweden is not "at war". |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 02:15:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
In the democracy that I'm proud to live in, it is illegal for the military to act in civilian policing.
The Swedish SÄPO (security police, catching foreign spies in the country and keeping track of terrorists, foreign and domestic. I'm not well versed in American orgnizations but to me it sounds more like NSA than FBI) is entirely civilian with no connection to military counterpart. The law that forbids the Swedish military to act as police civilian matters is fairly new, after several people were gunned down during a peaceful demonstration in 1931.
But then, Sweden is not "at war".
Sweden officially stays out of wars and does not invade other countries. Sweden also designs and builds some of the world's most
advanced fighter planes and air to air missles.
This is not a contradiction. Its like saying: "We hate war. War is stupid. We won't do it. (And don't even think of attacking us.)"
What if the USA behaved this way?
BTW: Last night I watched Fritz Lang's "The Testament of Dr. Mabuse". It was spooky, strange, and very good. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 14:57:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
BTW: Last night I watched Fritz Lang's "The Testament of Dr. Mabuse". It was spooky, strange, and very good.
Cool, isn't it?
It confirms that I did the right choice picking this handle.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 15:20:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
BTW: Last night I watched Fritz Lang's "The Testament of Dr. Mabuse". It was spooky, strange, and very good.
Cool, isn't it?
It confirms that I did the right choice picking this handle.
Makes one wonder, when one's theme song starts with "sell him your soul"... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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