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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2005 : 23:48:07 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link, Valiant Dancer... I suppose I still like libraries for nostalgic reasons, maybe the "novelty" of looking at text on "real paper" (ya know- old dogs, new tricks, and all that.)
The suggestion by Kil that the Republican Party has been partially "commandeered," or "hijacked" in recent years by an extremist group with views which neither reflect the opinions of the vast majority of their members, nor the constituents they represent is a disturbing thought. I am curious as to what extent vwrc feels that this could apply. I am afraid to ask filthy because although his input is always intelligent and insightful, it can be so diabolical and sinister that I really should have a crucifix-on-hand before it read it "just in case" (ha ha.)
Originally posted by Trish
... not a true democracy, resulting in the majority rule...
You pretty much "drove home" DaveW's outstanding points- the whims of societies can change too quickly (and often, in an irrational manner) to make true democracy (e.g. "mob rule") likely workable in a fair and stable way. And in conjuction with the "mob rule" aspects of all of this, your noting of the necessity of separation of church/state would seem to make more sense with the passage of time, as our society has become more ethically and non-secularly diverse (I see it every day.) To put it facetiously, I no more want to wake up one morning, and find out they're ready to tie a rock to my feet and throw me in a river to "see if I come to the surface" (the standard test for demonic possesion) than I'd want to see that done to the Buddhists who run the donut joint down the block, or the Muslims running the 7-11 up the road.
Along the lines you mentioned as being the (ideally) proper roles of politicians, I read or heard it mentioned in an interview that the founders of our country never envisioned the kind of "career politicians" commonly wielding the greatest influences today... rather, they intended ethical people of sound judgment from various walks of domestic life (teachers, businessmen [back then it WAS all men], dentists, etc.) would be elected, and therein dedicate perhaps a couple of years of their lives to government service, after which they might return to their former livelihoods and communities, to resume their conventional roles.
That's a far cry from the way our political circus operates today.
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Ron White |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 21:22:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
The suggestion by Kil that the Republican Party has been partially "commandeered," or "hijacked" in recent years by an extremist group with views which neither reflect the opinions of the vast majority of their members, nor the constituents they represent is a disturbing thought. I am curious as to what extent vwrc feels that this could apply. I am afraid to ask filthy because although his input is always intelligent and insightful, it can be so diabolical and sinister that I really should have a crucifix-on-hand before it read it "just in case" (ha ha.)
I've a friend that has been a staunch Republican since I've known her. She's actually considering removing herself from the Republican Party because of the idiocy of the Party in recent years. Those that I know who are Moderate Conservatives, like my friend, no longer recognize the Republican Party and have mostly switched to non-affiliated on their voters registration. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 21:52:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
The suggestion by Kil that the Republican Party has been partially "commandeered," or "hijacked" in recent years by an extremist group with views which neither reflect the opinions of the vast majority of their members, nor the constituents they represent is a disturbing thought.
The thing to consider is that Lincoln was a Republican. And that many of the states now "Red" were majority Democrat until the 1964 Democratic National Convention, at which the delegates from Mississippi and Alabama (I think) walked out because of the Democratic Party's inclusion of civil rights in its platform.
The party of "tradition" has changed a lot over the years. Would anyone care to demonstrate that at least some of the traditional Republican values are absent from today's administration? It shouldn't be hard to create a point-by-point list. Kil's already started it, if I remember correctly. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 22:04:45 [Permalink]
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Oh yeah, I wonder where I posted that...
One thing I know, if Barry Goldwater were alive he wouldn't recognize the Republican Party as it is today. Traditional conservatives were concerned about such things as fiscal responsibility. At one time they actually had a leg to stand on when they accused the Democrats of over spending. They are still accusing the Democrats of being spend happy as vwrc has demonstrated, but the parties have essentially switched position on spending borrowed money. Conservatives have never been big on taxes but the new crop of conservatives has no problem growing the federal government and cutting taxes (rather selectively) at the same time. Not too very long ago they believed that a smaller federal government was best...
And then there are the “neocon” imperialists and their dreams of Pax Americana that is at the heart of the Iraq conflict. The conservatives were once basically isolationist, so the new foreign policies are also a change. But I can ‘t really get into that now because I have to get off the computer. Maybe someone can fill in…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 10:16:01 [Permalink]
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The Great Republican Role-Reversal Gambit
No spending opportunity left behind
Here is a related article on the subject of the new brand of conservatives as it applies to taxing and spending among other things.
By Howard Fineman for Newsweek. It is pre Katrina. I think many of his points are well made.
quote:
Fineman:
March 16 - Here's a quick quiz on political labels for you junkies out there. Of the two major political parties, which one is spending money like water, creating new welfare entitlements, rapidly expanding the power of the federal government and launching idealistic wars of liberation around the globe?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 12:59:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
posted by Kil:
...No spending opportunity left behind...
The article was interesting (I'm forced to use my "last resort" Internet connection which is deathly-slow and behaves funkily at the moment, so I can't examine links more closely) and the points of Republican expenditure (both overall, and on Iraq) are valid- we know this, as the GAO has credibility, and the numbers say so. But there are issues here that go beyond the numbers, and I notice (as of my reading) a consensus of 13 opinions regarding the article's content was "2-stars"... this is extreme guesswork, but I suspect this may not be because of the quality of the writing or the validity of it's quantitative and substantive facts, but perhaps because many Americans view the "intangibles" of these matters more along the lines of the Republicans. I'm going to play "Angel's Advocate" here (the term seems fitting, since I don't think anybody present would argue with the Republicans allegedly being "On the side of the angels" : ) .
Some of the federal programs mentioned ("No Child Left Behind", education policy) could be viewed or argued either way in terms of their government-intrusive nature and justification of expenditure... encouraging alternatives schools could be seen as giving parents more control over their private lives, and the "No Child Left Behind" act could be argued as Bush being responsive to social needs, and taking control, in the best interest of youth and our nation in light of miserable failures of public schools in some instances (i.e. "the program itself may or may not be ideally run or solid in concept, but at least the guy's trying to address a set of problems.") Yea, privatization favors business, but I have no problem with that if private business can do a better job of the task in question. Can they? I don't know.
The Iraq situation is expensive in financial and human cost, and the administration has admitted that the post-war planning wasn't adequate... but the Republicans argue that the war is preemptively addressing major threats to our country, as opposed to allowing the wounds to continue festering, leaving future generations to endure greater terrorist, and possibly military risks. It must be noted that Democratic pundits overwhelmingly approved the Iraq invasion... and honestly, all they do now is critisize the Bush administration's every military decision... it almost reminds me of Nixon's promise of a "secret plan" to end Vietnam ("Elect me, and I'll let you in on it.") Actually, Nixon did actually have one (well, kind of, anyway...) which is more than I can say confidently of the Democrats after listening to Kerry campaigning, and to Kennedy's talks lately.
In an essay by a former North Vietnamese military leader, it was commented that "The Americans were easy to fight because of their stupid self-imposed rules of engagement." He also commented on their warm regard for the anti-war movement. Between the 2, we gave the North enough rope to hang us with. Of course, now we know that Souteast Asia didn't fall "like dominos" and the war was a futile cause... but considering our energy interests in the Middle East, and the ongoing new crops of terrorists from the region plagueing us and our Western allies, could Bush be taking the only realistic solution? It's too late to "pick-up" Israel and "replant them" in Montana or Wyoming, maybe (hell, I wouldn't mind, probly' get a better steak, but it aint gonna happen now : ) and that might be about the only thing that would satisfy Muslim radicals- unfortuneatly, maybe the only other option involves bombs and guns.
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Ron White |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 22:04:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Some of the federal programs mentioned ("No Child Left Behind", education policy) could be viewed or argued either way in terms of their government-intrusive nature and justification of expenditure... encouraging alternatives schools could be seen as giving parents more control over their private lives, and the "No Child Left Behind" act could be argued as Bush being responsive to social needs, and taking control, in the best interest of youth and our nation in light of miserable failures of public schools in some instances (i.e. "the program itself may or may not be ideally run or solid in concept, but at least the guy's trying to address a set of problems.") Yea, privatization favors business, but I have no problem with that if private business can do a better job of the task in question. Can they? I don't know.
I'll have to find the source for this information. As I recall, the 'No Child Left Behind' act was based in part on Bush's success in TX with education and children staying in school and graduating. The numbers were astonishing, something like a 95% graduation rate. Here's where things got sticky.
The numbers were fudged. Schools couldn't get funding unless they met certain standards for graduation rates. So, if a child left a school they were reported as 'transfered' not drop-out. This was possible because a large number of the children were children of illegal immigrants. As long as the child 'transfered' to another school, even out of country, the retention rate of the school was unaffected. So, a child transferred to a foreign school rather dropping out of school. Falsely elevating the retention rates for schools so they could maintain funding. The actual retention rate of schools in TX was no different, in many cases worse, than the average anywhere else in the states.
The 'No Child Left Behind' concept was supported by falsely elevated numbers, never had any real effect on the drop out rate, and didn't hold water once you looked past the surface numbers. Now, I'll go see if I can find the reports and the real numbers. But everything is as close as I can recall to the original.
The real numbers.
Edited to add the link. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 11/12/2005 22:10:35 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 19:00:27 [Permalink]
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Well, apparently the SFN Underground Republican Cavalry (NEO-CON and KNUCKLE-DRAG divisions) haven't arrived to assist the President, so I guess that means the website won't benefit from GOP advertising in the near future (ha ha.) Anyway, Davey Crockett can hang here at the Alamo if he wants, but I think after I type this I'll go to Burger King then watch "24" instead...(LOL)
quote:
Originally posted by Trish
....The 'No Child Left Behind' concept was supported by falsely elevated numbers...
Yes, before I read the link, I thought I had seen the issue addressed on 60 Minutes, 20-20, or a show of that type. Given competition for funding, it's unremarkable that such "game playing" with categories, names, and numbers on spreadsheets goes on. I think that "in principle" attempting to instill educator accountability to encourage competence and conscientious efforts might make sense, but I honestly don't know anything about which factors the data suggests strongly effect school performance, and more importantly, which factors can be realistically improved with the tools at our disposal... such as fund allocation, and testing of educators and/or students. For example, if the root of the problems mainly include children's deficient school performance being due to impoverished home, and crime-ridden community environments, forcing educators to "compete" on unfair playing fields is neither fair, nor necessarily helpful. Some problems can be solved by directing money in the obvious direction, some are more complex than they immediately appear.
But this is just guesswork. I do know that the teacher's union promotes what is in the financial and vocational interests of its members (just as do other unions) and not necessarily what promotes educational efficiency. Here in California, teachers are required to pass a competency test called a CBEST. When this requirement was started years back, teachers complained of it's unfairness because so many public school teachers couldn't pass it. For fun (a few years ago) I signed-up, paid the test fee, and took it one Saturday morning at Cal State... I assure you, anybody posting on this website would consider that test so ridiculously easy, taking it would really, really make you question the teacher's unions, and the legitimacy of their claims as to the nature of the problems with the educational system, and how they should be addressed. |
Ron White |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 19:44:15 [Permalink]
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Davew
Common, Dave you know the myth as well as I. Either there were no Communists infiltrating the government or those that were Communist posed no threat to the U.S. McCarthy was just some evil bastard who picked on these poor innocents and "destroyed their lives".
After the fall of the Soviet Union many of the subversives were revealed to , in fact, have worked for Stalin.Of course, there are some folk who claim,even now, Communism was never a threat.vrwc |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 20:06:47 [Permalink]
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Kil
One point I'd agree on, spending is just as bad with Republicans in control of Congress as under the Democrats.You're probably not aware of it but there is a big effort by conservatives to counteract this. You see part of the fight in the deficit reduction fights in the House. You will also see primary fights, like the earlier Toomey v. Specter, in 06.
Bush is criticized by conservatives for failing to use the Veto on these excessive spending bills. Big Media seldom covers these things so you may not be aware of this,also. vrwc |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 20:41:39 [Permalink]
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valiant dancer
Credits for being the first person I've ever seen use the term "ultraliberal". As you see in the foregoing postings the biggest complaint about the right is we use the word "liberal" as an attack.It looks like noone wants to accept that public experience made that a bad word. I can't say I'm unhappy with that. You believers, just keep on believing.
Zell Miller is a "wing nut". Keep it up. Yes! Keep attacking every moderate or conservative with the Dem. label. We'll take all the Dem. defectors you supply.
Regards from the "ultraconseravative attack monkey". That's persuasive stuff! vrwc |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 20:41:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Common, Dave you know the myth as well as I. Either there were no Communists infiltrating the government or those that were Communist posed no threat to the U.S. McCarthy was just some evil bastard who picked on these poor innocents and "destroyed their lives".
After the fall of the Soviet Union many of the subversives were revealed to , in fact, have worked for Stalin.Of course, there are some folk who claim,even now, Communism was never a threat.vrwc
You're a real piece of work. You answered the one question which I said didn't matter, and ignored the questions which do matter. And you claim the Democrats are unwilling to discuss the issues? I applaud your pure hypocrisy. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2005 : 21:04:15 [Permalink]
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Dr Mabuse
Oh yes, I saw the N.G. reference. It is not correct. The Katrina hurricane did not produce "thousands" of dead.
Reports about the aftermath also did not properly identify the statutory levels of government response. In this country the federal government is not empowered to move in to a state and sweep aside the local authorities. Since you're a foreign national I wouldn't expect you to know this, but the Big Media "news" people who botched the reporting of this event, should have. I'm sure you did not hear how the LA governor, Blanco, blocked Red Cross/Salvation Army relief trucks (vanguard of the FEMA relief column). LA was the only state to experience this delay of federal relief because the othe state governors were better prepared.
I'll also request you forgo expletives about our President, at least on internal affairs. It's bad enough hearing it from our country's left wing who prefer invective to drebate. vrwc |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 03:38:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Dr Mabuse
Oh yes, I saw the N.G. reference. It is not correct. The Katrina hurricane did not produce "thousands" of dead.
Of course it was not a correct description of Katrina. It was a simulation for Christ's sake! Performed a year before Katrina. But the main thrust of the prediction was correct: New Orleans was flooded and there was a great loss of lives.
quote:
I'm sure you did not hear how the LA governor, Blanco, blocked Red Cross/Salvation Army relief trucks (vanguard of the FEMA relief column).
Isn't the Red Cross and the Salvation Army private organisations? If so, how (and why) would they get blocked?
quote:
I'll also request you forgo expletives about our President, at least on internal affairs.
That is a valid point. I'll try to keep it in mind.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 03:50:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Davew
Common, Dave you know the myth as well as I. Either there were no Communists infiltrating the government or those that were Communist posed no threat to the U.S. McCarthy was just some evil bastard who picked on these poor innocents and "destroyed their lives".
After the fall of the Soviet Union many of the subversives were revealed to , in fact, have worked for Stalin.Of course, there are some folk who claim,even now, Communism was never a threat.vrwc
How many of the people that got their lives destroyed by McCarthy and his thugs were actually proven by evidence (and I mean Evidence, not hearsay) to have been communists? Subversive communists? Involved in illegal activities?
I thought that USA was founded on the principal that people are free to have whatever political opinions they like, and speak about it, and argue for it, as long as they do not break any laws.
quote:
many of the subversives were revealed to , in fact, have worked for Stalin
Really? I'm skeptical to your claim. How about some documentation to support your assertion? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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