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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
 Posted - 11/28/2005 : 20:21:43 [Permalink]
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Big Papa Smurf
Reviewing, Dr M has properly chided me for presuming where your comments were heading, re levees collapsing. I was replying to points that, in instance, you weren't making at that posting.I'll plead guilty to that.vrwc
Dr M
As confessed above,I jumped ahead on what BPS might have been leading to with his N.G. quote. You're probably unaware of how much the Katrina hurricane aftermath was politicized in this country. Some left wing political types here (RFK,Jr for instance) actually suggested Pres. Bush CREATED the hurricane. Other bizarre allegations suggested that Bush arranged the dynamiting of the levees in certain areas to kill parts of the population there. This kind of hysteria has little correction in the preemintent media here, so simple converatives like myself may leap defensively. When I'm wrong I'll try to retract. I maintain that doesn't cancel points where I am correct.
To your earlier question: Yes ARC and Salvation Army are "private" entities (SA is a religious organization} and the federal emergency agencies, here, try to coordinate these private efforts to get them where they can do the most good. Using these private groups eliminates much of the administrative costs of a government bureaucracy and applies more of the rescources to the victims. In the case of Katrina hurricane's effects the failings of local and state government were politically blamed on the pres.vrwc |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2005 : 20:39:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
They weren't concerned with whether their programs did good or harm; they wanted to feel good about their own compassion. No amount of the taxpayers' labor was too large to keep them feeling good.
I see. So if the facts from history don't support your contention, dismiss it with handwaving and demonization. Got it. Too bad rural electrification caused energizing of local economies and produced jobs from the private sector who now had power to manufacture goods.
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If "liberal" is a slur, the public's experience with liberal rule made it that way.
Contrary to what Bush and the ultraconservatives and ultraliberals think, repeating a lie does not somehow magically transform it into the truth. Liberal programs still have to be judged by their successes as well as their failures and excesses. Just like conservative policies.
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Actually, no. The self defined conservatives have demonized liberal programs. Just like the self defined liberals have done to conservatives.
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Valiant Dancer
The allegation of liberal motive being to keep the participants feeling good about themselves relates to the political practice of continuing government spending programs after they've repeatedly failed to do what they were supposedly intended for.
Your response has nothing to do with the section of text you have partially and obliquely quoted. The fact is that some liberal programs did end after they met their intended goals. There are some that are ongoing. There are some that need serious change. Just like conservative programs.
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Isn't one definition of "Fanatacism" the repeated attempt to do something that has failed before with the belief that the results will be different next time?
Just like supply-side economics which failed so radically under Reagan? Even the Gipper knew when to cash out the program when it didn't work. It's not a liberal only failing of government.
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In this instance the "Great Society" programs consumed almost 3 trillion of taxpayers' labor without lowering the poverty level. vrwc
The Great Society provided the impetus to assist business in preventing further worsening and helping to break an economic depression. Without some of the programs (from which some still provide benefit such as TVA and rural electrification), the US would have been ill prepared to gear up for the second world war. WPA was a means to prevent the marginalized from running up bad debt and starving to death. My great grandfather objected to the WPA because he was a grocery store owner. He still lost a lot to bad debt, but not as much if WPA hadn't been around.
The WPA was considered picking the pockets of business during it's inception and brief run during the time. In retrospect, it did more good than harm and must be counted as a success. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 11/28/2005 20:42:43 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2005 : 20:45:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Some left wing political types here (RFK,Jr for instance) actually suggested Pres. Bush CREATED the hurricane.
Uh, could you provide a source for that allegation?
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Other bizarre allegations suggested that Bush arranged the dynamiting of the levees in certain areas to kill parts of the population there. This kind of hysteria has little correction in the preemintent media here, so simple converatives like myself may leap defensively.
Considering I have never seen it reported in the mainstream media that "Bush arranged the dynamiting of the levees in certain areas to kill parts of the population there," why would they need to correct it?
I think simple conservatives like yourself react to distortions, anecdotes, and isolated incidents aired by conservative pundits like Rush Limbaugh, rather than reacting to anything in the mainstream media itself. It's the only explanation I can come up with for your gross mischaracterization of what the "preeminent media" reports.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2005 : 21:15:18 [Permalink]
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| The The Great Society among other things ended literacy tests for voting. There are many programs that are or were part of The Great Society. Some did better than other's as is the way with government programs. It is basically a lie to lump all the programs together and call the whole thing a failure. It is true that it did not end poverty. It did, however, reduce some poverty levels. But still, that is not looking at the whole picture… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 21:49:16 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by filthy
Doc, as far as I am concerned, you can expletive the fucker to your heart's content. After all everything the US does affects Sweden and everyone else in some way, to greater or lesser extent.
I think it was a Canadian who once said something to the effect that being in the world with us is like sleeping with an elephant. Every time the elephant farts, you know it all too well.
Filthy
Thank you for making the conservative point. U.S. is the largest free market in the world. That is our power. If these euopeans want to compete they'de better get off their socialistic asses and market.vrwc |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 22:10:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
valiant dancer
Credits for being the first person I've ever seen use the term "ultraliberal". As you see in the foregoing postings the biggest complaint about the right is we use the word "liberal" as an attack.It looks like noone wants to accept that public experience made that a bad word. I can't say I'm unhappy with that. You believers, just keep on believing.
Because public experience does not make it a bad word. TVA was a liberal program. WPA was a liberal program. Rural electrification was a liberal program. Medicare was a liberal program. All of these worked well. The first three have since ended since the goals have been met. The last has been tinkered with and beset by longer living citizens. Should we not forget other liberal programs like the GI Bill. Have there been excesses? Absolutely. On both sides of the fence. For instance, supply side economics, advocation of welform termination, and faith based initiatives. The conservatives have klinkers, too.
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Zell Miller is a "wing nut". Keep it up. Yes! Keep attacking every moderate or conservative with the Dem. label. We'll take all the Dem. defectors you supply.
I'm not attacking moderates or conservatives. I'm attacking ultraconservative loons, like Miller. If you really want the ultraconservative, theocracy advocating, demonizers of opposition, you're welcome to them.
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Regards from the "ultraconseravative attack monkey". That's persuasive stuff! vrwc
If you are laying claim to that title, then you're welcome to it. Or is your name Kay Bailey Hutchison?
VD: Kay Bailey Hutchinson, last I saw, was an elected senator in your state. You don't like her, there's the electoral process.Of course there's the obstacle of citizens who agree with her. I'm sure you guys can come up with a way to eliminate the obstacles of citizen participation. Maybe the Iraqis will send you Saddam, if you ask.vrwc |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 22:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
For a time it seemed there was a "danger" we'd run out of mortal enemies ("Without the USSR, what's going to justify spending N% of our GNP on new bombs and poison gasses?") Since we now (again) seem to have an abundant supply of enemies (unfortunately) I see no incentive to drag the "Red Threat" out of its coffin.
If you let your redicals set the course and pace (as they have done the last six years, maybe more) then you'll end up with the whole world as potential enemies.
Get organized, right now!
Save you country (and the world) before it's too late!
Vote republicans out of office!
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 22:43:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by beskeptal.I heard the words 'cold war' brought up in regards to the 'war on terror' yesterday as well. It was quite depressing to think the Bush admin started the 'cold war' anew but I think they actually did.
_______________________________________________________________________Are you suggesting that the U.S. precipitated extreemist Islamistic terrrorism? Bizarre! How? We caused 9/11? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 22:55:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
You're probably unaware of how much the Katrina hurricane aftermath was politicized in this country. Some left wing political types here (RFK,Jr for instance) actually suggested Pres. Bush CREATED the hurricane.
That sounds too unbelievable. I will not accept that until you provide indisputable evidence that there are left wing politicians that dumb (RFK, jr explicitly since you mentioned him). That there are people in general that dumb, that I do believe after reading about Pat Robertson and Homophobe-Phelps and that Judge Moore who is running for Governor in some state.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 23:15:03 [Permalink]
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What? You haven't read Usama Bin Laden's speeches?
In one of the latest, he mentioned several instances where he blamed the American Imperialist Military for deaths of Arabs. The 9/11 attack was just retaliation.
Besides, the 9/11 attack killed only one fifth compared to another menace, that year alone.
Drunk drivers in the US murder five times that many people. Each year! Where's the public outcry about that? Usama is a brilliant strategist, educated by the Masters of Terrorism.
The real buzz in the news in Europe these days are the CIA-chartered Lear-jets that are suspected of being covert prison transports. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 23:17:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
I don't know your age (not asking) but surely your memory goes back to the 90s. when Newt Gingrich and the conservative Republicans rolled back Great Society welfare.Liberal politicians like Teddy Kennedy were emoting, in every forum, that children would starve,thousands of people would become homeless, etc. It didn't happen of course. How were we wrong to characterize such politicans as "bleeding heart"? They weren't concerned with whether their programs did good or harm; they wanted to feel good about their own compassion. No amount of the taxpayers' labor was too large to keep them feeling good.
While I'm not Kil, I just thought I had to address some of these. I'll give you some background on myself. I've seen the political beast from the inside of campaigns change over the years. (First campaign I worked was for Dan Walker (D-IL) in 1972 at the tender age of 5.) It's turned into a mudslinging fest of pain for the candidates where things they have done which may have been labeled liberal are being painted as the norm vs the exception. Once slung, it has been made difficult by the intellectually lazy electorate to shake. Anymore, local races are about name recognition instead of issues.
Gingrich didn't get his whole plan implemented. Even back then the party politic knew they had to negotiate the best deal they could out of the opposition. It was less severe than the Gingrich plan. Gingrich and the ultraconservatives were looking at dismantling Welfare, not reforming it.
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How are we wrong to characterize politicians whose first and only
response to every social/econonic problem is a government program
as "knee jerk" liberals?
Because we've seen this lable applied to politicians where it doesn't apply. Very few politicians in Washington are pushing for new governmental programs and agencies as a first and foremost response to programs.
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If "liberal" is a slur, the public's experience with liberal rule made it that way.When a liberal politician tries to hide behind another label how are we wrong to point out to point out that he is, in his governmental proposals or practices,liberal?
Actually, no. The self defined conservatives have demonized liberal programs. Just like the self defined liberals have done to conservatives. This is the new way of getting what you want done. Demonize your opponent and try to convince people that you are right through repetion and hope the voting public never investigates your claims.
[quote]
If there are still, as WIKIPEDIA claims, many Democrats "who are centrist or could be considered right wing" they'd better start taking back their party.I believe that is Zell Miller's thesis.
Incidently, "certainty makes you ridiculous" only if you're wrong.vrwc
Zell "challenge Chris Matthews to a duel" Miller is a far-right wingnut. Has been for years. Democrat in name only. Just like John McCain has been characterized by the Republicans. The centrists have let the ultraliberals into places of power, but the centrists are beginning to moderate the messages. The marginalization of Howard Dean as chair of the Democratic party should be evidence that the centrists are gaining power. Even Hillary Clinton is moving towards the center to get the Presidential nominee nod. (Bad idea if they actually put her up for the job.)
Kil:Wow. "Hillary is moving toward the center". Now, if she had honest principles, why would she have to "move"? This is an admission of left wing failure. Conservatives don't have to"move". We
represent what the majority believes.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 23:34:46 [Permalink]
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| vrwc, you need to get your formatting sorted out. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 23:57:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
vrwc, you need to get your formatting sorted out.
Yes, please. If you want to converse, I'm not going to bother trying to figure out what you are quoting and what you are replying very much longer. It isn't worth my time. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 23:58:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Kil:Wow. "Hillary is moving toward the center". Now, if she had honest principles, why would she have to "move"? This is an admission of left wing failure. Conservatives don't have to"move". We
represent what the majority believes.
Absolutely wrong. More like the Republicans have sold out long ago, playing on the common man's fears and prejudices to get elected, only to screw them over in favor of big corporations once they get into power. Hiliary mistakenly believes she can play the game as well, but it's not going to happen. The country is ready for real change. It's had all the scandals, corruption, ugliness and war-mongering it can take. The next President is going to be a true, dyed-in-the-wool liberal with the country's best interests at heart.
And since you're back, vrwc, would you mind linking me to any information that corroborates your allegation that RFK Jr. accused Bush of actually creating hurricane Katrina? Because all I can find are a few right-wing pundits up in arms over statements he made suggesting global warming may have been a factor in creating the hurricane, and pointing out Bush's negligence on addressing this environmental issue. Were you simply engaging in a bit of hyperbole? Or are those two things really the same in your mind? Are you a global warming denier? Do you still believe Al Gore said that he invented the internet? Do you think honest men should have a history of exploiting such half-truths?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/08/2005 00:00:26 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 01:39:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptal
I heard the words 'cold war' brought up in regards to the 'war on terror' yesterday as well. It was quite depressing to think the Bush admin started the 'cold war' anew but I think they actually did.
Are you suggesting that the U.S. precipitated extreemist Islamistic terrrorism? Bizarre! How? We caused 9/11?
Your history is lacking. 9/11 was hardly the beginning of anything except Bush's excuse to follow his dangerous whims.
The US and Britain invaded and split up the oil resources of the Middle East among themselves in the beginning of the 1900s. Look it up. They/We destroyed the democracy of Iran at the time and put into motion the events that have led up to today. It isn't about Islamic Fundamentalism any more than it is about a Christian Crusade to destroy the Moslems. Those ideas are merely the tools of the power hungry used to manipulate the soldiers. Bush and Osama both may think 'God' is directing their actions. Or they may not and it may be a facade. But the real power lies in the money holders who want to keep things in their favor, be it oil resources or just plain power.
The cold war I speak of is the war of fear mongering. It is used to spend billions which end up in the coffers of the people stirring up the fears. Iraq/Saddam/terrorism/terrorist/terror/and 9-11. (Of course, lately, old Osama has been left out of the rhetoric, either because the fear espousers are embarrassed they haven't gotten him, or there is no money to be spent that can go to the Haliburtons of the war by pursuing him.)
Yes, there is a problem with terrorists. It goes back waaay before 9-11. But the solution certainly wasn't to invade Iraq, a country who also feared Osama's brand of fundamentalism and certainly didn't support Osama's efforts.
Osama would like to be God's next prophet. That power position would suit him. Now he has even more opportunity to follow that dream. And Bush and his cronies have even more opportunities to squeeze the masses for even more money and power.
That's what the cold war arms race was all about, Russia collapsed as a military power and, low and behold, all those military contracts collapsed with it. But now, there's a whole new treasure to tap. It's the war in Iraq. Be sure to ham it up as a threat to us all as terrorism's roots. No matter Saddam had no Al Qaeda ties. No matter there were no weapons of mass destruction. The French were getting all the oil. That won't do.
War is peace. Oceania or Asia, take your pick. I think those were the two fake enemies in the book, 1984 that kept the power elite in power. We have to fight the enemy, you must keep the powerful in power lest we fail and the enemy destroy us. We can't have a situation where there is no cold war enemy. That wouldn't be profitable. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/08/2005 01:42:39 |
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