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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2001 : 14:04:42 [Permalink]
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Trish:
Thats right, stay out of NV. Its a damn wasteland and there is nothing good here.  Arizona or Texas are a much better choice.
P.S. spread the word, Nevada bad, other states good.
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Rift
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 17:11:29 [Permalink]
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You can't imagine what a HUGE mistake the creationists did here in Kansas.
Kansas has never been a stronghold for creationism, this was the first time anything like this happened. We take great pride in our education system (It's usually ranked int the top 10, mostly in the top 5)
Kansas also has a hair trigger when it comes to people making fun of us. (probably all those damn OZ jokes) I think that turned the tide against the creationists more then anything. We had the WHOLE DAMN WORLD making fun of us, and we didn't like it one damn bit.
Seeing the reaction, and how quickly we booted those idiots out of office, I am really proud of being a Kansan :)
We were caught napping. I honestly couldn't tell you who my representive on the BoE was. We all know now :) BTW my representive is an evolutionist, voted against the stupid thing in the first place, and won her re-election with a landslide. :)
I think I mentioned this before, the demographics of this whole thing was weird too. The counties out west, which is supposedly the bible part of the state, all voted against the orginal horse hooey too. They are all strongly pro-evolution. The creationists strong hold was south of KC along the missouri boarder, a fairly populated area and usually a liberal area. In fact the stupid measure was written by a damn missourian.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 17:25:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
That's what home schooling/private schools are for. At public schools?....the "schlumk" stops here. (schlumk meaning study of religious fairy tales on par with science.)
Well if I move to TX that'll be good to know! BTW my daughters private school does teach evolution as science. 
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 18:00:43 [Permalink]
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Randy:
quote:
That's what home schooling/private schools are for. At public schools?....the "schlumk" stops here. (schlumk meaning study of religious fairy tales on par with science.)
Trish:
quote:
Well if I move to TX that'll be good to know! BTW my daughters private school does teach evolution as science.
Thanks for pointing that out and _please_ excuse my over-reaching statement! 
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 18:00:56 [Permalink]
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nt
Edited by - Randy on 06/05/2001 18:02:46 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 18:01:07 [Permalink]
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error-triple post...nt
Edited by - Randy on 06/05/2001 18:03:48 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 18:19:27 [Permalink]
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Well despite your triple reply Yeah, many don't think about that, but they do!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2001 : 20:12:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well despite your triple reply Yeah, many don't think about that, but they do!
(got a odd error message twice when trying to post, hence the redundant re's.)
Anywho, - cough, sputter,...one more time - is that it's public schools which are required by law to not play favorites with religious stories in-place of, or along side of science. If one was wanting religious instruction in schools, then they'd have to look elsewhere, other than the public school systems.
....and thanks, Trish, on your well received point.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 08:48:06 [Permalink]
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^
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quote:
error-triple post...nt
You should be able to simply delete your posts. Look for the little trashcan icon at the top of your message. I don't believe there is a time limit on being able to delete.
------------
Gambatte kudasai! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 10:23:20 [Permalink]
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This letter to the editor appears in today's Abilene Distorter (Reporter) News. It is in response to a New York Times Wire Service article on the recent dinosaur discoveries in Egypt.
After reading this article, you can appreciate me calling Abilene "the Belt-buckle of the Bybull Belt". There are three private christian colleges there. No doubt the writer of the letter below is a graduate from one of them.
Be prepared to gag.......
=======================
http://www.reporternews.com/2001/opinion/0606.html
Dinosaur's age
Regarding the June 2 article about finding a dinosaur in Egypt, first let me say I appreciated reading it simply to learn about the discovery of this reptile.
Dinosaurs are fascinating creatures.
My input is this: The age of dinosaurs is based upon a belief system known as evolution.
This article says, “The specimens were about 94 million years old.”
The problem with this statement is that it is stated as a fact, when in fact it is based upon an unprovable belief (evolution), essentially a religion. It is not hard to understand why it is stated as fact, since the world's public education system is founded upon evolution, but we must remember it is simply a belief, not fact, and should be stated as such.
Now, I realize the article came from the New York Times News Service, and you may hesitate to edit the article; you may not even be allowed to edit it, I'm not sure; but you are responsible for what appears in your paper, and therefore, you should in some way ensure the accuracy of your publication. Perhaps a statement at the end of the article to indicate the ages are based upon a belief in evolution.
Dan Hall
Abilene
(NY Times article ran in Abilene paper:)
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/01/science/01DINO.html?searchpv=day05
==================
Just incredible, isn't it? This guy's letter is more of a testament to his own ignorance of the subject.
"My input is this: The age of dinosaurs is based upon a belief system known as evolution."
This is an amazingly stupid sentence. Geology, fella, it's geology.
Most of the rest of his tripe is of him reducing the fact and "theory" of evolution down to the fairy tale level of religion.
Either the paper ran his letter to publicly humiliate him, (which I doubt) or it was to reflect the community's philosophy.
The below link is from Ask the Astronomer website. I highly recommend reading Dr. Sten Odenwald's response to a Big Bang and Creation question. He does a great job in describing what science theory is and is not.
In fact, booknote Odenwald's answer and use it for combating the Dan Hall type morons. There's a lot of them out there people.
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q916.html
Edited by - randy on 06/06/2001 10:28:33 |
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JRB
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 11:50:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
My input is this: The age of dinosaurs is based upon a belief system known as evolution.
He's been reading Gish (or some other nonsense).
Last Friday (6/1) I attended the Shermer-Gish creationism/evolution debate here in Phoenix (at a church, of all places).
Gish basically said the same thing - he read the definition of "religion" out of a dictionary and claimed it applied to evolution.
All the bible-thumpers in attendance nodded their heads and "amen'd" their approval.
*sigh* - amazing. . . .
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 12:22:04 [Permalink]
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From letter to the editor:
quote:
My input is this: The age of dinosaurs is based upon a belief system known as evolution.
JRB wrote:
quote:
He's been reading Gish (or some other nonsense).
Last Friday (6/1) I attended the Shermer-Gish creationism/evolution debate here in Phoenix (at a church, of all places).
Gish basically said the same thing - he read the definition of "religion" out of a dictionary and claimed it applied to evolution.
All the bible-thumpers in attendance nodded their heads and "amen'd" their approval.
*sigh* - amazing. . . .
Was just reading Shermer's E-Skeptic mailing on the same. I'll post it after this. Something else that you were there! I imagine you were mashing your teeth a lot.
The Abilene writer's statement was a complete inaccuracy, as you know,...trying to relate "age" to evolution.
And as you mentioned, with the debate, the fundies just only use a pedestrian definition of theory, evolution, or religion, - when in practice, science theory is leaps beyond just having to "thunk a thot in my haed."
What was your opinion of how the debate went, JRB? Would like to see Shermer on some of these debates.
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 12:25:51 [Permalink]
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E-SKEPTIC FOR JUNE 3, 2001
Copyright 2001 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine, e-Skeptic
magazine (www.skeptic.com and skepticmag@aol.com). Permission to print,
distribute, and post with proper citation and acknowledgment. We encourage
you to broadcast e-Skeptic to new potential subscribers. Newcomers can
subscribe to e-Skeptic for free by sending an e-mail to:
join-skeptics@lyris.net
---------------------------------
CREATIONISM DEBATE REPORT AND MORE AMMO FOR EVOLUTIONISTS
The Shermer-Gish debate was held Friday night, June 1, in Phoenix, Arizona.
Since it was held at a church it is no surprise that the fundamentalists were
out in force. There were about 600 people total present, with a small
contingent of about 30-40 skeptics and humanists that came as an organized
block to support me, which I deeply appreciated so I would have some people
to look at occasionally for a nod while the rest were shouting out their
"read the Bible" and "Amen" and "Jesus is the answer" etc. (And special
thanks to Jim Lippard and company who, during the break, provided me with
many important points to make in my rebuttals.) So, of course, Gish's
presentation was well received, which it would have been the case had he only
gotten up and said "praise the Lord" and sat back down. (This was Gish's
final debate as his wife has ALS, which he announced publicly at the debate,
and she needs special attention from him. I said at the beginning of my
presentation that we all wish him and his wife the best in this hard time.)
Overall I was well treated by the church staff in charge. The evening was
very professionally organized, and most of the people were exceptionally
polite (and in an odd way TOO polite, as if they don't trust themselves),
although it did make me a little nervous when one church official told me
after the debate when a big crowd of people surrounded me that he had
assigned me a body guard (some big guy was standing there next to me) "just
in case." Just in case WHAT? I thought Christians were suppose to be
exceptionally tolerant. Well, in any case, I guess I was grateful for the
gesture, "just in case." Actually the people standing there were VERY
friendly, most of them offering to pray for me. Then a spontaneous debate
broke out among them as to whether I would still be saved during the second
coming, since I had once been a born again Christian in my youth (recounted
in "How We Believe"). Since I had fallen away the question is whether when
Jesus comes I'll be thrown into the lake of fire or if I might get to go to
some way station for a second chance. Gish said during the debate that since
I am an "atheist-evolutionist" (his favorite term) I was NEVER a born-again
Christian because once you are born again you are always saved. I assured him
that at the time I was, and was quite serious about it (I drove my family
nuts with the constant preaching and I used to "witness" to strangers, which
is sort of Amway with bibles), and therefore if I'm wrong now I'm still in
there and will be saved. He didn't seem to agree.
Why do such debates? My hope is that for the kids, teenagers, and young folks
in the audience (and that was about half the people) I was able to plant a
meme of tolerance for other belief systems, and a basic understanding of how
science really works (contrary to how Gish says it works). I did this a
number of ways, some of which I shall post below from my notes. The material
here is only a small supplement to what I have already written in rebuttal to
the creationists in my books "Why People Believe Weird Things" and "How We
Believe" (see also Ken Miller's splendid book "Finding Darwin's God" and
Robert Pennock's "Tower of Babel.") These quotes from Gish, Morris, et al.
are self-explanatory in their non-scientific approach to science:
"God used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural
universe. This is why we refer to divine creation as special creation. We
cannot discover by scientific investigation anything about the creative
processes used by God."
--Duane Gish, Evolution: The Fossils Say No, p. 42
"As a missionary organization, ICR is funded by God's people. We believe God
has raised up ICR to spearhead Biblical Christianity's defense against the
godless dogma of evolutionary humanism. Only by showing the scientific
bankruptcy of evolution, while exalting Christ and the Bible, will Christians
be successful in 'the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations,
and every high thing that exaltheth itself against the knowledge of God, and
bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ' (II
Corinthians 10:4,5)." --ICR Webpage
"The only way we can determine the true age of the earth is for God to tell
us what it is. And since he has told us, very plainly, in the Holy Scriptures
that it is several thousand years of age, and no more, that ought to settle
all basic questions of terrestrial chronology."
--Henry Morris, Remarkable Birth, p. 94
You could not find a less scientific statement that Morris' above. I hammered
this one home pretty hard.
For me the highlight of the evening was when I polled the audience as to how
many agreed with Gish that the creation story should be taught in public
schools. A veritable phalanx of hands shot up. I then went through a series
of slides of different creation stories from around the world, asking for a
show of hands as to how many think that this creation story or that creation
story should be taught in public schools. Of course, no one raised their
hands because they think all these other creation stories are silly myths.
These are from the chapter in my book Why People Believe Weird Things on how
to debate a creationist:
--No Creation Story from India, where "The world has always existed as it is
now, unchanging from eternity."
--The Slain Monster Creation Story from Sumeria-Babylonia, where "The world
was created from the parts of a slain monster."
--The Primordial Parents Creation Stories from the Zuni Indians, Cook
Islanders, and Egyptians, where "The world was created by the interaction
of primordial parents."
--The Cosmic Egg Creation Stories from Japan, Samoa, Persia, and China, where
"The world was generated from an egg."
--The Sea Creation Stories from the Burmese, Choctaw Indians, and Icelanders,
where "The world was created from out of the sea."
--The Spoken Edict Creation Stories from the Mayans, the Egyptians, and the
Hebrews, where "The world sprang into being at the command of a god."
When I got to this last slide no one raised their hand, so I left if up and
said, "Uh, are you SURE you don't want this last one taught, because THIS
creation story is YOURS." Slowly it dawned on them what I was doing. Some
hands started to go up, but the rest didn't want to be trapped any further. I
then drove home the point that to insist that the government force public
school children to learn one religious creation story to the exclusion of all
others is not only in violation of the First Amendment's establishment
clause, it is religious bigotry. Since they didn't seem to be getting my
point, I went over the top and yelled out "Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU. This
is bigotry. It is racism. And it is wrong."
Well, THAT got their attention and really made some of them mad. In what has
to be one of the most telling encounters of all the public addresses I have
made, one woman in the Q & A admonished me for "playing the race card" and
that she was offended that I called them all racists. I acknowledged that
this WAS over the top, that I was sorry because, technically, this was not
racism but bigotry, and more specifical |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2001 : 12:42:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Last Friday (6/1) I attended the Shermer-Gish creationism/evolution debate here in Phoenix (at a church, of all places).
You lucky dog!
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Maddog
New Member
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2001 : 04:51:29 [Permalink]
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Randy,
Interesting reading.
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