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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2005 : 15:26:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Hmmm, well it is not far fetched that intelligent beings should evolve on other worlds. Is it that far fetched to believe that we ourselves, in say another 100,000 years of societal and scientific development, would not develop capabilities for interstellar travel?
Really it boils down to whether one 'believes' that we, in less than 500 years of doing science, have about exhausted any reasonable possibility of an expanded physics which would allow such.
Markie, examine the number of assumptions which one must make in order to even ponder your claim and admit that--while some are reasonable, others are not--and in total, they add up to an incredibly preposterous claim.
- intelligent beings evolved on other worlds
- these intelligent beings evolved at a time which pre-dated mankind's evolution
- these intelligent beings developed a theory of physics which, contrary to all indications derived from our own efforts, allows for intergalactic travel in a reasonable amount of time
- these intelligent beings developed the technology capable of transporting themselves across space in accordance with these currently unknown laws of physics
- of all the planets in the Universe, these intelligent beings managed to locate Earth and visit the planet
- these intelligent beings just happened to visit Earth at a time which coincided with mankind's brief existence on this planet
- these intelligent beings interacted with the humans they found, who in turn recorded these encounters as religious experiences
- these intelligent beings, for unknown reasons, desired to hybridize themselves with the humans they found
- these intelligent beings found that our DNA and theirs were similar enough to allow for such a hybridization
- these intelligent beings were mostly unsuccessful in their attempts, leaving only a handful of deformed skulls as evidence of this failed project in the desolate regions of Mexico
- these intelligent beings left no other currently known record of their time here
- Lloyd Pyeto, a modern homo sapien who just so happens to already believe the above all transpired, is the unbelievably fortunate owner of these skulls
- Lloyd Pyeto is honest and unbiased in his attempts to properly identify the skulls
- all the experts who have examined them and dismissed them as deformed human skulls are in fact mistaken
These, markie, are the assumptions one must accept before even giving this absurd story a "maybe." Over a dozen of them, and I'm sure I've left some out. Your idea of what this "all boils down to" is radically deficient when it comes to evaluating the actual intellectual leaps a thinking person must make before believing such a tale is possible.
Like I said earlier, this story is the very definition of "far-fetched."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/18/2005 17:21:05 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 19:24:56 [Permalink]
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H. Humbert, you forgot one assumption: 1.5 (or perhaps 8.5)
The fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
And then, there's also the fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
I mentioned it twice, because of 1) the staggering odds of another world having the exact same evolutionary path, and 2) that there are currently no know species on earth with close enough DNA to allow hybridisation, and the closest non-hybridable known animal is the chimp with some 98% similarity in the genome. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 19:46:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
H. Humbert, you forgot one assumption: 1.5 (or perhaps 8.5)
The fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
And then, there's also the fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
I mentioned it twice, because of 1) the staggering odds of another world having the exact same evolutionary path, and 2) that there are currently no know species on earth with close enough DNA to allow hybridisation, and the closest non-hybridable known animal is the chimp with some 98% similarity in the genome.
Yeah, that's my #9. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but the assumption is that hybridization would be possible. Of course, that's one hell of a big assumption for all the reasons you mention. I guess that single assumption does include several more in it, such as distinct lifeforms on separate planets having similar evolutionary paths and closely-matching DNA.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/18/2005 19:59:51 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 20:54:02 [Permalink]
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| Ethics notwithstanding, it would be cool to know if there actually could be a human/chip hybrid. Hovind et.al would have some interesting times. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 21:02:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ethics notwithstanding, it would be cool to know if there actually could be a human/chip hybrid. Hovind et.al would have some interesting times.
I remember hearing once that a human male can conceive with a female sheep (yes, some sick people have actually done this), and that the ewe will actually carry a fetus to term, but that birth is inevitably a stillborn.
Call it my sick side, but I was always curious what that animal would look like.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 07:59:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I remember hearing once that a human male can conceive with a female sheep (yes, some sick people have actually done this), and that the ewe will actually carry a fetus to term, but that birth is inevitably a stillborn.
That sounds like an urban legend. Given the number of sheep and sheep-herders throughout history, that should have happened enough times to be properly documented.
I've never heard of it before. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 11:15:08 [Permalink]
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Humanzee, is it possible?
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 11:56:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ethics notwithstanding, it would be cool to know if there actually could be a human/chip hybrid. Hovind et.al would have some interesting times.
I remember hearing once that a human male can conceive with a female sheep (yes, some sick people have actually done this), and that the ewe will actually carry a fetus to term, but that birth is inevitably a stillborn.
Call it my sick side, but I was always curious what that animal would look like.
Ever see the Skittles commercial?
http://www.tubespot.com/index.php?spot=skittles-sheep&bw=hi
Probably something like that.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 13:08:24 [Permalink]
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Well I await eagerly the nuclear DNA tests. If the results aren't anamalous, even then it hardly weakens the the idea that aliens visit our planet. However if the results are anomalous then alien-skeptics may have a whole lot to rethink.
If alien spaceships do not visit our planet then one has to account for the vast numbers of respectable people who report not merely vague lights in the sky but specific features of the flying craft which appear to defy our technology. The hybridization issue is a just a subplot of the larger UFO issue and not necessary for the latter to be true.
Regarding the unlikelihood of aliens mating with earth humans, that of course invokes the premise that human evolution has been essentially random and purposeless. That premise is nothing more than a belief really. Or put differently, that premise is an active disbelief in evolutionary overcontrol.
But it leads to an interesting question: Would the idea a higher Power be more acceptable to a disbeliever if aliens were found to be real?
Mark
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 13:25:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
H. Humbert, you forgot one assumption: 1.5 (or perhaps 8.5)
The fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
And then, there's also the fantastically unlikeliness of the alien's DNA being similar enough to allow a hybrid.
I mentioned it twice, because of 1) the staggering odds of another world having the exact same evolutionary path, and 2) that there are currently no know species on earth with close enough DNA to allow hybridisation, and the closest non-hybridable known animal is the chimp with some 98% similarity in the genome.
Yeah, that's my #9. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but the assumption is that hybridization would be possible. Of course, that's one hell of a big assumption for all the reasons you mention. I guess that single assumption does include several more in it, such as distinct lifeforms on separate planets having similar evolutionary paths and closely-matching DNA.
Assuming that the aliens' genetic material was composed of DNA in the first place. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 13:28:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I remember hearing once that a human male can conceive with a female sheep (yes, some sick people have actually done this), and that the ewe will actually carry a fetus to term, but that birth is inevitably a stillborn.
That sounds like an urban legend. Given the number of sheep and sheep-herders throughout history, that should have happened enough times to be properly documented.
I've never heard of it before.
New Zealand or Australia would be the countries where you would be likely to find such a hybrid. These countries have a love/hate relationship and they both call eachother sheep-shaggers. Looking at Peter Jackson I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 14:05:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Well I await eagerly the nuclear DNA tests. If the results aren't anamalous, even then it hardly weakens the the idea that aliens visit our planet. However if the results are anomalous then alien-skeptics may have a whole lot to rethink.
What if the nuclear DNA tests are "anomalous"? Why would that constitute proof that it's a human/alien hybrid. Why not a humanzee, shuman (?sheep/human) or centaur? Why not contamination from other DNA sources? You have absolutely no idea what the DNA of a human/alien hybrid would look like (you have absolutely no idea what a human/alien hybrid would look like full stop). How, then, can you possibly claim to have some evidence thereof? Go for the more likely explanations before grasping after straws. Anomalies would not give "alien-skeptics" any good reason to rethink.
But I agree - if no anomalies are found then it does not weaken the idea that aliens visit our planet.
quote:
Regarding the unlikelihood of aliens mating with earth humans, that of course invokes the premise that human evolution has been essentially random and purposeless. That premise is nothing more than a belief really. Or put differently, that premise is an active disbelief in evolutionary overcontrol.
1. Evolution is not essentially random. Do not discount the various mechanisms for selection. They are real. They can be measured.
2. Evoultion is "purposeless" (I'm not sure if you mean that this implies that our purpose is something like that we should pray on Sundays or that evolution is non-directed), as far as we know. The evidence to the contrary is not very good. Or put differently, the belief in evolutionary overcontrol is not founded on evidence.
quote:
But it leads to an interesting question: Would the idea a higher Power be more acceptable to a disbeliever if aliens were found to be real?
Mark
No. The existence of aliens has nothing to do with the existence of supernatural powers. What a strange question. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 16:05:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well I await eagerly the nuclear DNA tests. If the results aren't anamalous, even then it hardly weakens the the idea that aliens visit our planet.
Only because that idea couldn't possibly get any weaker. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 16:08:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I remember hearing once that a human male can conceive with a female sheep (yes, some sick people have actually done this), and that the ewe will actually carry a fetus to term, but that birth is inevitably a stillborn.
Q. What's the difference between Mick Jagger and a Scotsman?
A. Mick says "Hey You, get off of my cloud!"
The Scotsman says "Hey McCleod, get off of my ewe!" |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2005 : 16:37:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
That sounds like an urban legend. Given the number of sheep and sheep-herders throughout history, that should have happened enough times to be properly documented.
I've never heard of it before.
It might very well be. The place I read it was a 25th anniversary Rolling Stone book my dad had on the Woodstock music festival. One of the "characters" prowling the concert was this insane Jesus-freak who wore robes and carried a lamb. He spouted some nonsense about how God intended men to lie with lambs, the symbol of Jesus, but that Original Sin doomed the offspring to be dead at birth.
Yeah, not a super reliable source. On the one hand, the guy was obviously bat shit insane. On the other hand, it wasn't hard believing he knew what he was talking about from first-hand experience.
Ah, take the story with a grain of salt.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/19/2005 18:39:54 |
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