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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/26/2005 : 17:24:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by markie
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You are aware that most of us skeptics are of the opinion that life, probably intelligent, does exist elsewhere in this universe?
Of course, afterall Carl Sagan believed such.
Whether or not Carl Sagan believed so or not is irrelevant. Scepticism doesn't have a "pope" or other single authority who dictate how we should believe. There are dissenting views even among skeptics about some things. Like False Memory Syndrome.
However, some people are very good skeptics, and while we do hold them in high regard, we do not cling to them like Christian faithful cling to their pastor, priest, bishop, prophet, or other religious authority.
Carl Sagan made some errors like every other being. But he admitted that he was wrong, and changed his mind.
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What we are so highly skeptical of is the total idiotic nonsense that gets passes around as "evidence" of ETs comming to Earth. The whole abduction, anal-probe, cattle mutilation, etc.. nonsense.
It may not be hard evidence, but eyewitness testimony of those judged to be sane is seriously considered in a court of law, especially when it is corroborated by other witnesses.
You never realised that anecdotal evidence is worthless in "hard science"? Maybe in anthropological and sociological sciences it may have some value, but in exploring the material world...
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I suppose the bottom line is that skeptics 'believe' it is a noble and perhaps beneficial thing to not believe in that for which there is no hard evidence, to not dignify mere wishful thinking with 'belief' if it is outside the realm of the empirically known.
Yes I think understand skeptics quite well :)
No you don't.
Take yet another session of reading the SFN-mission statement, and ponder upon it, and try to figure out how it differs from your statement I quoted above.
Skepticism is about testing the truth-value of statements (though also more, but this one of the most important things) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/26/2005 17:37:54 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 21:43:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
I suppose the bottom line is that skeptics 'believe' it is a noble and perhaps beneficial thing to not believe in that for which there is no hard evidence, to not dignify mere wishful thinking with 'belief' if it is outside the realm of the empirically known.
Yes I think understand skeptics quite well :)
No you don't.
Take yet another session of reading the SFN-mission statement, and ponder upon it, and try to figure out how it differs from your statement I quoted above.
Skepticism is about testing the truth-value of statements (though also more, but this one of the most important things)
Right, as if 'testing the truth value' of something was so straightforward. That might be akin to testing to see if someone who is taking a liking to your girlfriend is really a nice guy or not. Perhaps more often than not, "testing the truth value" of something may merely entail a trip to the skeptical enquirer or equivalent for obtaining a nice list of reasons why one shouldn't believe the anomaly. It would be better for the truth seeker to also investigate reasons why he should believe the anomaly. I see that refreshing trait in some here like Ron.
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2005 : 23:00:54 [Permalink]
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| Thanks, markie. I try, but I slip up and go on feeding-frenzies myself sometimes :) |
Ron White |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 07:04:11 [Permalink]
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| My title isn't Septic Fiend without a reason... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 09:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
markie:
Right, as if 'testing the truth value' of something was so straightforward. That might be akin to testing to see if someone who is taking a liking to your girlfriend is really a nice guy or not. Perhaps more often than not, "testing the truth value" of something may merely entail a trip to the skeptical enquirer or equivalent for obtaining a nice list of reasons why one shouldn't believe the anomaly. It would be better for the truth seeker to also investigate reasons why he should believe the anomaly.
If the “truth value” of a claim is in the realm of the falsifiable, what you suggest happens all the time. An example of that would be the testing of a psychic's ability to demonstrate whatever claim he is making. While psi itself may be outside of what can be falsified at this time, if the psychic can demonstrate an ability that can't be explained in any other way, that would suggest that our view of psi would need to be reconsidered. If an anomaly can be explained without the needing a paranormal explanation, and since psi is speculative, the more natural explanation gets a tentative nod. Most often, the psychic simply fails the test and no additional considerations are required.
What I am saying is that the test for the claim is the same no matter which direction you approach the claim from. Contrary to your belief, the scientific method and critical thinking are methods used to remove any bias that we may have one way or the other. If you can suggest a better method for evaluating the “truth value” of any claim, I'm all ears.
As for consulting Skeptical Inquirer, in many cases they are reporting on the research already done. They are but one source for those of us who do not have the time to conduct the research ourselves. Remember, they are, in many cases, scientifically testing claims that are not of much interest to other scientists. At other times they editorialize. I have been known to not agree with some of the positions they have taken. Most notably, their position on False Memory Syndrome. Yes markie, independent thought happens among skeptics.
As for ID, well, it is not a falsifiable concept and falls outside of what science can test for. (Of course, their claims that there are no transitional species is falsifiable, and if the evidence means anything at all, hogwash.) You can believe that we evolved as a part of Gods plan, but don't expect science to support that position. It can't.
Edited to add: I used ID as an example. I suppose I should have used the example of a Flying Saucer landing in Buffalo New York. I forgot what thread I was in. But all in all the point I am trying to make is the same, really...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2005 : 10:09:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
It may not be hard evidence, but eyewitness testimony of those judged to be sane is seriously considered in a court of law, especially when it is corroborated by other witnesses.
Mudane things, yes. Not extraordinary claims, however.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2005 : 20:06:50 [Permalink]
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| Right, H. When a prosecutor brings charges against the crew of a flying saucer for violating secure airspace, markie, drop me a line so I can be there for the eyewitness testimony regarding an exterrestrial visit to Earth being "seriously considered in a court of law." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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