|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 11/01/2005 : 09:23:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Yeah much depends on how you define altruism. I've regarded it as kind, empathetic actions or feelings towards people who may be strangers, and the action results in no apparent material reward or recognition.
That is not altruism. Altruism is simply the ability to place oneself in harm's way for the benefit of another, or sometimes an unseflish regard for the wellbeing of another.
Some aspects of animal cooperation could be viewed as altruistic, like the bats sharing food, etc..
But your definition, markie, is not the definition of altruism. I know you desperately want to elevate humans to some special status above the rest of the natural world.
If you made a table of all animals who exibit altruistic behavior and arranged it from most-to-least altruistic, humans would likely come in near the bottom of the list. Sure, some individuals can exhibit great altruism, but as a whole we are not.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
 |
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 09:29:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Frankly I'm surprised by the study findings because I would have thought monkeys would bring food to their friends given the opportunity.
Goddamnit, stop calling chimps monkeys!
Question:
Since ape/human lineage split from the monkeys at the same time aren't we related to monkeys as closely as chimps are?
So could I say (using Markie's generalizations) that it is not surprising that Markie is not making sense because monkeys rarely do?
Just wondering...
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 09:46:12 [Permalink]
|
Posted by Markie - "Filthy's example of bats is good, but it could be similar to the case of 'drinking' buddies buying a bear for a friend who forgot his wallet at home, and more than that is crying about it."
You just compared Life and Death for the Bats, with drinking a beer with your friends?? |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 11/01/2005 09:54:16 |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 10:09:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Filthy's example of bats is good, but it could be similar to the case of 'drinking' buddies buying a bear for a friend who forgot his wallet at home, and more than that is crying about it :o
Not really, no, because if the bat doesn't feed it'll die, whereas the drunkard crybaby won't.
His example, in human equivalent, as far as I get it, would be something like this: a group of people through a famine. One person's starving but has a little bread to go by for another day. Another is equally starving but doesn't have any bread. The first shares his/her bread with the starving unknown so both feed, even though the first will have lost part of his food. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 10:13:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
You just compared Life and Death for the Bats, with drinking a beer with your friends??
Hey Astropin, why not include my smilie along with my quote? I just couldn't resist seeing the humour in vampires bats being 'drinking' buddies. Frankly, I find it rather touching that they would help each other out that way.
Dude, I'm not desperate about elevating humans about the rest of the animals. I already know we are above the rest (in certain ways).
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 11:11:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
You just compared Life and Death for the Bats, with drinking a beer with your friends??
Hey Astropin, why not include my smilie along with my quote? I just couldn't resist seeing the humour in vampires bats being 'drinking' buddies. Frankly, I find it rather touching that they would help each other out that way.
Dude, I'm not desperate about elevating humans about the rest of the animals. I already know we are above the rest (in certain ways).
Yesss... Only we can sin, and only we can know that we're sinning...
But beyond that and a certain viciousness, we are not above any other animal; we are merely different.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 11:41:54 [Permalink]
|
Bat=/= apes =/= humans(with compound intelligence and societal pressures)
Hell most human societies are not altruistic at all, though they may claim to be. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 06:44:40 [Permalink]
|
Hey, bigpapasmurf
quote:
Hell most human societies are not altruistic at all, though they may claim to be.
Then how do you explain Bush going to Iraq to liberate the oil, er I mean the people...
Oh, never mind.
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 07:08:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
You just compared Life and Death for the Bats, with drinking a beer with your friends??
A beer is a matter of life and death!
(I want a stout, preferably Guinness) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 07:14:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yesss... Only we can sin, and only we can know that we're sinning...
This has actually been tested on chimps.
A trainer involved a chmip in a deception, a conspiracy to hide items from another trainer. Anyone seeing the behaviour of the chimp could tell that he was having a bad conscience, even when lying to the second trainer about the whereabouts of the hidden items.
I'm not a dog owner, but I've been told that dogs know when they have done something wrong.
(edit: spelling) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/02/2005 14:48:57 |
|
|
|
Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 08:08:08 [Permalink]
|
Perhaps the question is not so much whether any animal performs any altruistic behaviour - it is after all, only a mode of behaviour - but whether they intend to help a stranger. Difficult I know, but if you can convince me that a chimpanzee intends to help another, then you've convinced me that they are people.
Perhaps Markie is a very intelligent monkey rather than a gullible human. Really, if a monkey were to fall for the wiles of the Blacklight power company I'd be impressed. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 08:09:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Yesss... Only we can sin, and only we can know that we're sinning...
This has actually been tested on chimps.
A trainer involved a chip in a deception, a conspiracy to hide items from another trainer. Anyone seeing the behaviour of the chimp could tell that he was having a bad conscience, even when lying to the second trainer about the whereabouts of the hidden items.
I'm not a dog owner, but I've been told that dogs know when they have done something wrong.
Apes and canines have very ridged social structures that they live by, and they abide by them. This has been ingrained in them by eons of evolution and helps insure the success of the society. When we take them into our homes or study them in the lab, we are imposing a new and forign order on them, and thus their recognition of 'disobedence' can't classified as 'sinning' or 'knowing they've sinned' as we think of the terms. Mostly it's a sign of confusion, as in their normal societies the alpha members would instinctivly and quickly punish transgretions. And here's where it gets sticky: what might be a transgretion to us could be perfectly normal behavior in the animal's natural society.
One of my neighbors has a dachshund, an obnoxious and wretched beast that I truly loath, that looks ashamed of itself almost every time I've seen it. It's major 'sin'? knocking over garbage cans and scarfing the crap therein every time it gets the chance. Also stealing unattended food from the table (it climbs up on the chairs; another evil habit). That all would be perfectly normal for it's distant ancestory, but, understandably, is not acceptable to my neighbor, who scolds the miserable cur at least three of four times a week. I've offered to loan him a pistol, but....
And it must be remembered that animals too, are individuals; some going along with anything, others putting up with very little. And some are downright sneaky.
In short, every time one tries to assign human charecteristics to other species, one will get it wrong. Every, single time!. Koko is one smart gorrila, but still a gorilla never the less. She is fortunate in that her keepers understand this.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 12:08:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I'm not a dog owner, but I've been told that dogs know when they have done something wrong.
Well I think it is more likely they see it in your body language and facial expression, that they have done something wrong. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2005 : 12:33:25 [Permalink]
|
| Better would be to say they know when the pack leader(owner) will be angry. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
