|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2005 : 14:24:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Filthy
While we're bring up names from the past why not:
John Huang
James Riady
Mochtar Riady
Charlie Trie
Loral and Hughes corporations (Chinese missles work a lot better now
don't they?) vrwc
I'm not familiar with any of these folks -- perhaps I've just forgotten them. Please elaborate.
And speaking of the Chinese, when was it that Bush all but gave them a spy plane to take apart, then apologized like the sniveling coward that he is to get it back?
But, we can play these silly games all week, tit-for-tat, and it's all pretty meaningless, as was the seemingly endless Whitewater fiasco. As for the current investigation, I think we need to wait and see what happens. It's a long way from over and there'll be plenty of nonsense for us all to rant about.
Interesting website, by the bye.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 15:07:51 [Permalink]
|
Filthy
Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the VRWC website. I wonder if I can sue...
I'm not surprised you don't remember the names. These were the principal conduits of Chinese money into the Clinton campaign Their names largely buried by a compliant media in obedience to the Dem mantra that the investigation was "all about sex".They conveniently disappeared into China when the investigation started.
Subsequently, Clinton changed the export rules so that Loral and Hughes--large Dem contributors-- could sell previously prohibited
computer technologies to the Chinese. This technology was immediately incorporated into their missles, the ones they've twice threatened to lob at the U.S.
That was a cheap shot about the captured aircraft.Should we have declared war? vrwc |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 15:30:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Filthy
Thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of the VRWC website. I wonder if I can sue...
I'm not surprised you don't remember the names. These were the principal conduits of Chinese money into the Clinton campaign Their names largely buried by a compliant media in obedience to the Dem mantra that the investigation was "all about sex".They conveniently disappeared into China when the investigation started.
Subsequently, Clinton changed the export rules so that Loral and Hughes--large Dem contributors-- could sell previously prohibited
computer technologies to the Chinese. This technology was immediately incorporated into their missles, the ones they've twice threatened to lob at the U.S.
That was a cheap shot about the captured aircraft.Should we have declared war? vrwc
Please provide some links.
The Chinese don't want to fight us any more that we want to fight them. I've always thought that a firm demand back by a threat of sanctions would have turned the trick. Bush blinked, then crawled.
Cheap shot? Sure it was, but I'll not retract it. I truly loath the mendatious son-of-a-bitch....
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 21:59:44 [Permalink]
|
| filthy, but what do you think about the long-term picture in terms of China becoming a potentially dangerous military threat? They have a massive population under totalitarian control, and are making stunning progress in modernization of both their conventional and nuclear military capabilities, as well as (and not independant of) civilian space-launch vehicles, which they are striving to make competitive in the commercial space market... all of which we have been (and continue to) indirectly fund, to a large extent through trade policies working to our disadvantage. Unlike the USSR, is it possible that they are still governed by the same basic political philosophy and worldview as had been the case during the tragic Vietnam and Korean conflicts? Is it possible that we should be wary of their allegedly mutualistic intentions? |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 11/06/2005 22:02:53 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 00:43:33 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
Unlike the USSR, is it possible that they are still governed by the same basic political philosophy and worldview as had been the case during the tragic Vietnam and Korean conflicts? Is it possible that we should be wary of their allegedly mutualistic intentions?
While China is still totalitarian, there's change around the corner. The information age is invading the country by way of computers from Japan and the US, and cellular phones infrastructure from Sweden. This and more will increase the information flow in China and eventually make it close to impossible to monitor for the purpose of suppressing dissenting ideas. Educational levels will increase, and with it the wish to be free of an oppressing government. Old leaders die, and with them some of the icons of totalitarianism. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 01:30:46 [Permalink]
|
DrM- "While Cuba...
An interesting and optimistic possibility. If that's the way things evolve, maybe there's more hope for the world than some might think. Seems a little capitalism's working pretty well for them from all indications. Maybe that's a start. |
Ron White |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 08:09:14 [Permalink]
|
Well, USA is currently a good example capitalism steering the country toward disaster, which it not good either. Environmental issues being ignored for the bottom line is threatening the entire globe, while fatally sick people (remember WinAce) get the boot from medical insurance. A middle way is preferable: a government for the people strong enough and idealistic enough to stand against corporate agendas, and caring for the little people.
I consider USA one of the greatest obstacles to world peace, and clearly the most dangerous one. Russia's military aggressions in the satellite states of the former USSR-republic is understandable: they want to keep their country from breaking up in smaller pieces. The same goes for Turkey, fighting Kurdish rebels in the east. But USA goes to open war a quarter of the way around the world for what reason? USA is the country with the most advanced weapons of mass destruction, not Iraq. And USA clearly have the will to use it.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 10:57:45 [Permalink]
|
vrwc's prepackaged talking points seem to me to be fallacious and irrelevant to the case at hand. Libby is not charged with outing Valerie Plame, he is charged with perjuring himself and obstructing justice in aid of thwarting an investigation of just how a CIA agent and an entire intelligence operation (remember Brewster-Jennings?) aimed at combating the proliferation of WMDs came to be exposed and wrecked by leaks.
Consequently, attacks against Joe Wilson and his wife are a mere exercise in well-poisoning.
I expect that our new McCarthy fan will scurry off in search of prefabbed talking points with which to pooh-pooh the idea that perjury by government officials is anything to be taken seriously. If so, he might find it instructive to contemplate the example of Alger Hiss while he enjoys his helping of yummy gander sauce.
And, in case the talking points include claims that there wasn't any exposure of anything really covert, it should be noted that it was the CIA who referred the case to the Justice Department for investigation. This provides a pretty good inference about how seriously the people who were actually running this operation took its exposure, and of how their legal advisors, who are likely to be quite knowledgable, viewed the probability that the exposure violated criminal law.
I think it's also worth noting that whatever Fitzgerald had in his bag of classified evidence has been enough to convince judges to take such serious and risky steps as chucking a reporter for a major newspaper into jail to convince her to testify.
The 800-pound gorilla which the 'Pugs are trying so hard to distract attention from is the fact that the Niger documents were crude forgeries. This is now so generally acknowledged that both the FBI and the Italian government have been investigating who is responsible for them.
Wilson was correct. He went public with his knowledge only after it became apparent that BushCo intended to continue making claims which were based on faked "evidence" while knowing that these claims couldn't be supported.
Instead of doing what we would expect an advocate of a policy in a democratic society should do, which would have been to defend rationally the validity of what they cite as evidence, BushCo resorted to cranking up the smear machine to attack the messenger. That resorting to a tactic so invalid that a high-school debate team wouldn't have it also resulted in demonstrable damage to the safety of the nation and the entire world illuminates a consistent pattern in the Bush regime's behavior.
Simply put, they just don't think.
All the well-poisoning, ad hominem tu quoque claims about Clinton and red herrings in the world aren't going to change that. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
|
|
|
vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 18:50:37 [Permalink]
|
Filthy
Let's see, a P1 Orion monitoring radio signals is rammed by a red Chinese fighter.Fighter and its pilot are destroyed. P1, badly damaged, is forced to land on Chinese island. We can presume the crew tried to destroy all the sensative equipment they could on the way down. We know the Chinese swarmed aboard when the P1 landed and stripped the plane within hours. At this point it is to our intelligence interests to recover the rest of the plane as soon as possible to access the extent of the intelligence compromise. The threat of "sanctions" (i.e. trade war) isn't going to serve this purpose; it would drag on for months. A pro-forma "apology" did accomplish this.That may fit your criteria for cowardice; to me it looks like a simple judgement call. From our brief encounters it seems to me you are very capable of discussing the present administration above simple invective("coward", "mendacious").Im sure we can agree that the Libby indictment doen't prove that Libby is a liar, let alone everyone in the administration.If you wish to allege lying, lets take them one at a time and I'll discuss them with you. vrwc |
|
|
|
vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 19:10:33 [Permalink]
|
ktesibois
"Prepackaged talking points"? Gee, where did I get the package? I believe I remember as far back as the 90s. If you will look back at the postings you'll see I was responding to filthy's invocation of Ken Starr. If you consider anything I've posted is false, please bring up the specifics and I'll discuss then one at a time. vrwc |
|
|
|
ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 22:50:50 [Permalink]
|
vwrc, it's good to see that you're willing to examine specifics, and k threw a bunch of them at us at once... if he's correct, it sounds as though Bush, Rove, and company unofficially have a very unethical set of principles! When Stalin took power, Trotsky fled to Mexico in fear, and Stalin sent assasins after him who buried an icepick in his head... these days icepicks are out-of-vogue, so does Bush/Rove similarly resort to the modern versions... character assasination, harassment, and coverup? But I think the matter is unclear, because you make good points (as well) citing the speculative nature of the affair (from the public perspective at least.) The truth remains to be determined, if indeed, it ever is revealed. What would you say to k's very strongly worded accusations? Have you considered that k might be right? If you are certain of your position, please explain why... It is unclear to me, and much of the general public, what is really going on in this spin-ridden scandal.
And DrM mentions the overwhelming military strength of the US... have you considered that we might be the "bullies" in the Middle East? Is he right? Thanks for your input.
|
Ron White |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 02:32:01 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Filthy
Let's see, a P1 Orion monitoring radio signals is rammed by a red Chinese fighter.Fighter and its pilot are destroyed. P1, badly damaged, is forced to land on Chinese island. We can presume the crew tried to destroy all the sensative equipment they could on the way down. We know the Chinese swarmed aboard when the P1 landed and stripped the plane within hours. At this point it is to our intelligence interests to recover the rest of the plane as soon as possible to access the extent of the intelligence compromise. The threat of "sanctions" (i.e. trade war) isn't going to serve this purpose; it would drag on for months. A pro-forma "apology" did accomplish this.That may fit your criteria for cowardice; to me it looks like a simple judgement call. From our brief encounters it seems to me you are very capable of discussing the present administration above simple invective("coward", "mendacious").Im sure we can agree that the Libby indictment doen't prove that Libby is a liar, let alone everyone in the administration.If you wish to allege lying, lets take them one at a time and I'll discuss them with you. vrwc
Well, 'tis done and done now, and all that is left is opinion -- which won't buy a whole lot around here, neither yours nor mine.
Coward? I offer you the so-called 'Free Speach Zones'. Bush is too much of a pussy to meet with any of his consituants that might disagree with him, nor to even catch sight of them if it can be avoided.
Mendatious? He's still spinning the utterly bogus Iraq 'threat'.
I do not think China is a militaty threat, at least not at the moment. There is no need; they've got us by the short & curlies with the trade deposit. Of course, that can change with the vagrant winds and whims of politics.
We've got a long way to go with the Libby trial and it's fall-out. I'm not sure what that fall-out will be, but I think that I will like it.
I'm reading that Libby wrote a rather weird book, some time back. Anybody familiar with it?
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
|
|
vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 20:03:39 [Permalink]
|
filty
Again with the "mendatious".I'm going to assume that's mendacious,NEW WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY=untruthful.Again I'm going to invite you to bring up these alleged lies, one at a time so we can examine whether they are what you allege. vrwc |
|
|
|
Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 21:54:57 [Permalink]
|
President Bush, Crawford TX, approximately 8:00pm Central Time August 9, 2001:
quote:
As a result of private research, more than 60 genetically diverse stem cell lines already exist. They were created from embryos that have already been destroyed, and they have the ability to regenerate themselves indefinitely, creating ongoing opportunities for research. I have concluded that we should allow federal funds to be used for research on these existing stem cell lines, where the life and death decision has already been made.
I would call this lie number 1. There were at this time only 22 viable stem cell lines available for research. Yet he quoted this number of 60. Whether through willful deceit or ignorance, he supported information that was patently incorrect. This information could have been verified by his staff, yet they allowed an inflated number of stem cell lines to be quoted by Bush, rather than the correct number of viable lines currently undergoing research.
Look at what comes out of this administration and what is reality. There's no connection. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
