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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2005 : 13:46:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
According to some Fitzgerald is also a "thug", dealing in "horrible, Stalinesque persecution of Scooter Libby".
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100012
That's amazing because I heard Fitz give an account of the indictment and he was a total wimp. He went on about how it was hard to actually say if the perjury was an error of memory or intentional and so on. He couldn't possibly have given Libby any more benefit of the doubt. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 15:33:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
According to some Fitzgerald is also a "thug", dealing in "horrible, Stalinesque persecution of Scooter Libby".
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100012
That's amazing because I heard Fitz give an account of the indictment and he was a total wimp. He went on about how it was hard to actually say if the perjury was an error of memory or intentional and so on. He couldn't possibly have given Libby any more benefit of the doubt.
They must be horribly scared of something, otherwise they wouldn't have cranked up the rhetorics as much. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2005 : 16:36:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
According to some Fitzgerald is also a "thug", dealing in "horrible, Stalinesque persecution of Scooter Libby".
http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100012
That's amazing because I heard Fitz give an account of the indictment and he was a total wimp. He went on about how it was hard to actually say if the perjury was an error of memory or intentional and so on. He couldn't possibly have given Libby any more benefit of the doubt.
They must be horribly scared of something, otherwise they wouldn't have cranked up the rhetorics as much.
Mayhaps 'tis this:
quote:
It has become a cliché to say that Dick Cheney is the most powerful vice president in American history. Nonetheless, here is a prediction: When the historians really get digging into the paper entrails of the Bush administration—or possibly when Scooter Libby goes on trial—those who have intoned that phrase will still be astonished at the extent to which the Office of Vice President Dick Cheney was the center of power inside the White House—and at the grip it had on foreign and defense policy.
With a national security staff that numbered 14 last year (Al Gore usually had four or five), Cheney's office has a finger in every pie. Several of the State Department's top diplomats, including Eric Edelman, now undersecretary of defense for policy, and Victoria Nuland, now ambassador to NATO, are alums of Cheney's office. According to David L. Phillips' Losing Iraq: Inside the Postwar Reconstruction Fiasco, the dominant figure in some of the key interagency deliberations on postwar Iraq was not the State Department official who chaired them but Samantha Ravich, a Cheney aide who left the government and has since returned to OVP*. In addition, Cheney has remarkable influence over his onetime boss, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
With a potential scandal a lot more serious than Watergate in the offing, there is simply too much to lose. If the swine Cheney should go down, let us hope, one hell of a lot will go down with him.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 11:47:09 [Permalink]
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Now that I listen to all the news clips of Woodward going on about the bad, bad Fitzgerald, I see where all this is coming from. How Woodward went from all that he learned about these jerks during the Nixon era to being Bush's buddy is so beyond me.
I somehow doubt Woodward will give Cheney up even if jailed for contempt. Too bad this will take forever to play out. I want to see what's going to happen. |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2005 : 15:37:15 [Permalink]
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I recall an interview Woodward did around the anniversary of Watergate (sorry don't remember where). He said he'd always considered himself a conservative and really wasn't thrilled about publishing their (his and Bernstein's) findings because he knew they would be taking down Nixon. But that he didn't have much choice in the matter because of pressure being placed on him by others as well as his own conscience. So he wasn't as far removed from the right as Watergate would make him seem.
Now we find that Valerie Plame's was revealed to him by a high ranking source in the Bush administration too, though he never bothered to tell anyone. It's looking more and more like he'll soon join Judy Miller and be released for his paper.
Arianna Huffington has an interesting
article here about Woodward and the mess he is in.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 22:14:00 [Permalink]
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Filthy:
Obviously I'm the only conservative on this site, so it's going to take awhile to respond. None meet my challenge to take issues "one at a time". Everyone wants to trot out every obscure accusation they've ever heard, all at once. Four fingers at a time here is my speed, that's how it goes. So you guys are going to take it as I'm able to respond. I'm going to ignore your counterparts who resort to name calling. Can we agree there's no way to respond to an epithet except another. Let me post this as a standard for all. I'll pick up your messages below. vrwc |
| Edited by - vrwc on 11/20/2005 23:29:11 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 23:31:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Filthy:
Obviously I'm the only conservative on this site, so it's going to take awhile to respond. None meet my challenge to take issues "one at a time". Everyone wants to trot out every obscure accusation they've ever heard, all at once. Four fingers at a time here is my speed, that's how it goes. So you guys are going to take it as I'm able to respond. I'm going to ignore your counterparts who resort to name calling. Can we agree there's no way to respond to an epithet except another. Let me post this as a standard for all. I'll pick up your messages below. vrwc
Pick an issue… Oh, am I one of those you are not responding to?
Gosh though, I sure would have loved to have heard, back when we were having a discussion on the issue of name calling, an issue that you seemed to have simply walked away from, that you understood that the left does not exactly own exclusive rights to that method of argument. That would have been good. Instead, you justified the use of the term “bleeding heart liberal” for example, by saying “…they wanted to feel good about their own compassion. No amount of the taxpayers' labor was too large to keep them feeling good,” a slur which suggests that no thinking went into the programs that liberals favored, and then chose not to respond when I called you on that. One issue, (the one that seemingly brought you here in the first place,) one discussion, a focused thread and you bailed.
I'm with you on the name calling thing and the one issue at a time thing,
but gee whiz…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 23:48:10 [Permalink]
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fithy
Re yours 11/12
"yellowcake booshwa". It is still unrefuted that Sadam's intelligence TRIED to buy yellowcake. You 're trying to claim that,because they didn't actually buy any, they're innocent. Saddam already had over two tons of nuclear material but , thanks to Bush's initiative, the cyclotron needed to make it weapon grade was buried in an Iraq scientist's back yard.The scientist hs written about it I can find the citation, if you can't.
If you're trying to claim there's no connection between Sadaam and the terrorists, refer to Stephen Hayes' book, THE CONNECTION. A more concise distalation, independently researched, can be found in AMERICAN SPECTATOR 11/05 edition.vrwc
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 00:03:50 [Permalink]
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Ronnywhite
Your 11/12 is too anylitical. You've stepped a little off your observer's perch.Some good questions but you're close to invading left-wing dogma. They're going to start calling you names.vrwc |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 00:14:39 [Permalink]
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ronnywhite
trish
I seem to recall Trish has an exam coming up in early Dec. Hit the books , lass! We'll still be pleased to listen to your ideas in december.Good luck on those exams. vrwc |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 01:20:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
fithy
Re yours 11/12
"yellowcake booshwa". It is still unrefuted that Sadam's intelligence TRIED to buy yellowcake. You 're trying to claim that,because they didn't actually buy any, they're innocent. Saddam already had over two tons of nuclear material but , thanks to Bush's initiative, the cyclotron needed to make it weapon grade was buried in an Iraq scientist's back yard.The scientist hs written about it I can find the citation, if you can't.
If you're trying to claim there's no connection between Sadaam and the terrorists, refer to Stephen Hayes' book, THE CONNECTION. A more concise distalation, independently researched, can be found in AMERICAN SPECTATOR 11/05 edition.vrwc
Here's the story according to Wikipedia:
quote:
The term Yellowcake Forgery refers to falsified documents which appeared to depict an attempt by Iraq's Saddam Hussein regime to purchase yellowcake uranium from the country of Niger, in defiance of United Nations sanctions. These documents were cited as evidence by the United States and United Kingdom governments during the Iraq disarmament crisis that Iraq had attempted to procure nuclear material for the purpose of creating "weapons of mass destruction." This claim was part of the political basis for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Yellowcake, a uranium oxide, is a raw material used in the manufacture of nuclear reactor fuel rods. Yellowcake's uranium component can be refined into either plutonium or enriched uranium for use in a nuclear weapon.
The documents had long been suspected as frauds by U.S. intelligence. By early 2002, investigations by both the CIA and the State Department had found the allegations to be baseless. Days before the invasion, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) told the U.N. Security Council that the documents were "in fact not authentic." An FBI investigation into the provenance of these documents is ongoing.
The reference in U.S. President George W. Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech (in which he made a case for war with Iraq) made to Saddam seeking uranium from Africa was thought by many to be a reference to these documents. Retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson wrote a critical op-ed in The New York Times in which he explained the nature of the documents, and the government's prior knowledge of their unreliability for use in a case for war. Days later, in a column by Robert Novak, the covert identity of Wilson's wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame was exposed. The ensuing Plame affair" (aka. "CIA leak scandal") is an ongoing political scandal and criminal investigation into the source of the leak which "outed" Plame, and whether or not that person committed a crime.
The actual words President Bush spoke: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa" suggests that his source was British intelligence and not the forged documents.[1] The Butler Report issued after a review by the British government concluded that the report Saddam's government was seeking uranium in Africa was credible.[2] Nevertheless, no other proof of the existence of this alleged uranium is advanced, and today most do not view the uranium claim to be credible.
As I recall, the buried cyclotron was a leftover from the pre-Gulf War days. The aluminum tubes found were noted to be unsuitable for a centrafuge.
No one is arguing that Saddam would not have liked to have nukes. I am saying that Bush was grasping at any straw that might support an invasion of Iraq, an invasion that had nothing to do with the matter at hand: that of bringing bin Laden, et al, to justice for 9/11. Saddam has never been a threat to us and not much of one to anyone else since the sanctions were put in place. Exactly why Bush had such a hard-on to invade Iraq rather than let the inspectors finish their job is a mystery to me. I suspect that it is a mystery to him as well.
And it has led to his administration's undoing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 10:23:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy:
Exactly why Bush had such a hard-on to invade Iraq rather than let the inspectors finish their job is a mystery to me. I suspect that it is a mystery to him as well.
Pax Americana.
The president's real goal in Iraq
Just War -- Or A Just War?
by Jimmy Carter*, March 9, 2003
And no, I am not given to wild conspiracy theories. This war was the stated goal of many of Bush's closest advisers including Cheney and Rumsfeld before 9/11 and the war ever happend.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2005 : 22:52:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Ronnywhite
Your 11/12 is too anylitical. You've stepped a little off your observer's perch.Some good questions but you're close to invading left-wing dogma. They're going to start calling you names.vrwc
I might risk contaminating some dogma in other categories, but not Politics, for a couple of reasons. (1) "Political Science" is to "Science" as maybe "Alchemy" is to "Chemistry", or perhaps "Urine Therapy" is to "Medicine" as I see it. (2) A direct consequence of (1) is that I'm not knowledeable enough in the matters to meaningfully comment upon politicals... thus, anything I add (aside from asking questions out of curiosity) can be considered as frivolous or trite in nature, and for me, the primary utility of Politics threads is that they frequently provide a venue to make (stupid?) jokes. I'm not out to win a popularity contest in any thread (and certainly not in Politics)... just to toss-out a few ideas and opinions here-and-there... approach it the same way. Express the truth as you see it, and disregard the name-calling. There's nothing you or I could add to the political septic tanks of the Internet that's going to require a call to Roto-Rooter. |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 11/21/2005 23:01:35 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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