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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2001 : 06:41:26 [Permalink]
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Hey Gorgo, back to Afghanistan a moment.
How does the U.S. illegally attack a country whose government, the Taliban, WAS NEVER recognized by the U.N. as the legitimate governing body of Afghanistan?
If you want to invoke international law (whatever the Hell that is), then in fact we attacked a rogue government that was harboring a terrorist organization with certain members that were ALREADY indicted for crimes against U.S. citizens and property in a U.S. Federal Court in New York. The indictment, outlining the attacks on U.S. embassies in Africa, contained transcripts of the monitored telephone conversations of Osama. When he heard that we were evesdropping he went "off the air".
In THREE YEARS of negotiations with the Taliban by Clinton's State Department, they came up with a big fat zero. If you come right down to it, we have institued a "police action" to bring the perpetrators to justice. The LEGITIMATE Afghanistan government in exile, argued FOR intervention in the U.N. General Assembly.
Name ANY OTHER war in which U.N. sponsored talks for the formation of a new legitimate government for a country have taken place while the battlefield is still smoldering. There are 189 member states in the U.N. today. How is it that, in 5 years, the Taliban only managed to get recognition from 3 of them? Consider that there are 51 nations that are predominately Muslim. Subtract the 3 that supported the Taliban and you're left with 48 Muslim nations. Could it be that even Muslim nations thought the Taliban were a bunch of BASTARDS?
Just how do you negotiate with bastards, Gorgo? Do you talk to their leaders during the half-time show of public stoning of women in the sports stadium in Kabul?
Sometimes, just sometimes, you have to form the hand you use for greeting people into a fist. That is the only "greeting" some people understand.
(:raig
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:21:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
boy, you folks are masochists...
I've said it before -- the thing to do now is to raise your right hand and repeat after me: "Yes of course, Gorgo...you are *so* right! How could I have been *so* stupid as to think differently?"
Do it now...it's not too late
Got it. Sort of like argueing with Piper. If you disagree with him, you must not be listening to his arguements. [sarcasm] Couldn't possibly be because we actually disagree with his estimation of the situation. [/sarcasm]
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:24:18 [Permalink]
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When did I say that you couldn't disagree. In fact, Atomic has agreed that it is wrong to attack other countries without reasonable negotiations. We're just arguing about his belief that everything that the U.S. does is an act of God, and everything their "enemies" does is an act of the Devil.
quote:
quote:
boy, you folks are masochists...
I've said it before -- the thing to do now is to raise your right hand and repeat after me: "Yes of course, Gorgo...you are *so* right! How could I have been *so* stupid as to think differently?"
Do it now...it's not too late
Got it. Sort of like argueing with Piper. If you disagree with him, you must not be listening to his arguements. [sarcasm] Couldn't possibly be because we actually disagree with his estimation of the situation. [/sarcasm]
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:34:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
We're just arguing about his belief that everything that the U.S. does is an act of God, and everything their "enemies" does is an act of the Devil.
Now, just for clarity, is the comparison of acts of the U.S. to supernatural beings your words, Gorgo, or @tomic's? Everyone else has to be careful not to use such terms with you, as you'll criticise us for bringing silly superstition into your "intelligent" discussion...
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:40:08 [Permalink]
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Have I ever claimed not to be silly?
quote:
quote:
We're just arguing about his belief that everything that the U.S. does is an act of God, and everything their "enemies" does is an act of the Devil.
Now, just for clarity, is the comparison of acts of the U.S. to supernatural beings your words, Gorgo, or @tomic's? Everyone else has to be careful not to use such terms with you, as you'll criticise us for bringing silly superstition into your "intelligent" discussion...
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 08:03:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey Gorgo, back to Afghanistan a moment.
How does the U.S. illegally attack a country whose government, the Taliban, WAS NEVER recognized by the U.N. as the legitimate governing body of Afghanistan?
I see. Do the people who are dying have to be recognized by the U.N. before someone will care?
quote:
If you want to invoke international law (whatever the Hell that is), then in fact we attacked a rogue government that was harboring a terrorist organization with certain members that were ALREADY indicted for crimes against U.S. citizens and property in a U.S. Federal Court in New York. The indictment, outlining the attacks on U.S. embassies in Africa, contained transcripts of the monitored telephone conversations of Osama. When he heard that we were evesdropping he went "off the air".
So anyone who decides they have a grievance against another country can attack them? Chile could attack the U.S. for harboring Kissinger?
quote:
In THREE YEARS of negotiations with the Taliban by Clinton's State Department, they came up with a big fat zero. If you come right down to it, we have institued a "police action" to bring the perpetrators to justice. The LEGITIMATE Afghanistan government in exile, argued FOR intervention in the U.N. General Assembly.
What was the resolution that authorized the attack on Afghanistan?
quote:
Name ANY OTHER war in which U.N. sponsored talks for the formation of a new legitimate government for a country have taken place while the battlefield is still smoldering. There are 189 member states in the U.N. today. How is it that, in 5 years, the Taliban only managed to get recognition from 3 of them? Consider that there are 51 nations that are predominately Muslim. Subtract the 3 that supported the Taliban and you're left with 48 Muslim nations. Could it be that even Muslim nations thought the Taliban were a bunch of BASTARDS?
A bunch of bastards supported by many countries, including the U.S., because the Northern Alliance was a bigger bunch of bastards.
So, some good things might come out of this. Some nasty things might come out of this. The U.S. has shown a complete disregard for human life by attacking these people. Would it be okay if they executed U.S. children to attain whatever goal they have little hope of accomplishing instead of Afghan children?
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Just how do you negotiate with bastards, Gorgo? Do you talk to their leaders during the half-time show of public stoning of women in the sports stadium in Kabul?
How did they negotiate with these "bastards" when they were supporting them?
This is what I mean when I bring god and the devil into the mix. Some beliefs are remnants of religious beliefs. It's evident in George Bush's rhetoric, but not so evident in yours. "They" are always "mad dogs" who cannot be reasoned with. Of course when they call us mad dogs, or "great satan" that's funny.
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Sometimes, just sometimes, you have to form the hand you use for greeting people into a fist. That is the only "greeting" some people understand.
(:raig
You may be right. However, if you expect others to care about the rule of law, you'd better respect it yourself.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 10:32:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Hey Gorgo, back to Afghanistan a moment.
How does the U.S. illegally attack a country whose government, the Taliban, WAS NEVER recognized by the U.N. as the legitimate governing body of Afghanistan?
I see. Do the people who are dying have to be recognized by the U.N. before someone will care?
You're basically saying in response to craig that the law doesn't matter, because it's "what's right" that counts.
So why do you bring up and pretty much have as your main point all of this stuff about how "the U.S. is breaking/not following International Law" (not a direct quote)?
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 10:43:12 [Permalink]
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I don't think I said that to Craig, because this is an illegal attack. However, you are right, I don't care what the law is, I care what is best for all. That often has little to do with law, and usually nothing to do with military actions.
I am speaking to those that care about the law, or say that they do. If "terrorist" activities are wrong, then the terrorist activities of the U.S. are as wrong as that of anyone else, and the U.S. has no business talking about holding some higher moral ground than anyone else.
If you have no standards, and anyone can attack anyone for any reason, then you are saying that might makes right, and I'm saying don't cry to me when someone else wants to attack you when you don't care who you attack.
The U.S. has undertaken this crusade without thought of law or the cost to human life.
quote:
You're basically saying in response to craig that the law doesn't matter, because it's "what's right" that counts.
So why do you bring up and pretty much have as your main point all of this stuff about how "the U.S. is breaking/not following International Law" (not a direct quote)?
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 10:45:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Hey Gorgo, back to Afghanistan a moment.
How does the U.S. illegally attack a country whose government, the Taliban, WAS NEVER recognized by the U.N. as the legitimate governing body of Afghanistan?
I see. Do the people who are dying have to be recognized by the U.N. before someone will care?
See, this is why people pull their hair out arguing with you. You come up with a bunch of reasons why the US can't legally attack Afghanistan, and when you are shown to be completely wrong, instead of admitting you are wrong, you say, "Oh yeah? Well we should be nice to them based on some nebulous humanistic creed that only I understand."
Know what? Humanism doesn't exist. It's a word made up by atheists, as a rebuttal to the religious who blather endlessly, "Where do you get your morality if not from God?" so said atheists don't have to teach a course on morality every time. Know why? Because natural selection isn't cooperative by nature. Oh sure, certain animals, especially humans, will form groups for temporary security, but the cohesiveness of any group is differentially related to the relative safety that each member perceives. In the case of the US, the current perceived safety level is such that 'individuals' (on a macroscopic scale, smaller groups: states, counties, towns) who wish to protect overall unity are by and large supporting the effort of the metagroup's chosen representative (the military) against the most visible, immediate threat. Group cohesiveness increases up to a point then, as it becomes clear that the group can no longer ensure protection of the individual, cohesiveness begins to break down and the units to which individuals are immediately loyal become smaller and smaller.
The reason you can rant all day about the 'evil US propaganda machine' is that your personal safety is not threatened to the point that you feel the need to act.
The reason your personal safety is not threatened is that, humanistic or not, the government is, probably unknowingly, applying principles of natural selection macroscopically. Kill or be killed. Sometimes it really is that simple.
I, for one, don't want to find out where that aforementioned cohesion breakpoint is for this country.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 11:07:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
See, this is why people pull their hair out arguing with you. You come up with a bunch of reasons why the US can't legally attack Afghanistan, and when you are shown to be completely wrong,
The U.S. is a member of the U.N. and has agreed to uphold the UN charter. It is attacking a country without negotiating and without regard for the UN charter. Just because you make up a bunch of reasons why it really isn't a country, and it really isn't attacking a country without negotiating does not make it true. It is attacking a country without negotiating. It is attacking a country without regard for the UN or for international law, or for the well-being of the captive population of Afghanistan.
The U.S. does not want international law. Fine. They can attack and murder and torture whoever they want. Fine. When it comes to you being the one tortured and murdered don't cry to me about law or what's right.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Edited by - gorgo on 11/29/2001 11:09:19 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 11:37:20 [Permalink]
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Z-man, when you're right you're right.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 11:47:56 [Permalink]
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I also asked what the UN resolution was that authorized the US attack on half the world. If I've been shown to be wrong, that shouldn't be hard to produce. I still won't like it, but I'll have been shown that at least the U.S. was able to bribe the Security Council again. It's doubtful they'd ever get a General Assembly Resolution backing such a thing.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:11:57 [Permalink]
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Hopefully you're quoting yourself here.
quote:
'evil US propaganda machine'
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:12:44 [Permalink]
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That makes it comfortable, doesn't it? The people you disagree with are all idiots, aren't they?
quote:
Z-man, when you're right you're right.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:36:58 [Permalink]
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It's not that Gorgo, but you have a double standard when it comes to the US and you seem to think the UN has authority it does not and you are fully aware of it yet continually refer to the UN as if it was a World government with the ability to function as a sovereign government.
To you:
1. Any action taken by the US is a crime
2. If a country the US is attacking or has attacked ever did anything questionable then the US was ultimately responsible.
quote:
The US "made" Saddam
That's like trying a 30 year olds parents in court for crimes committed by the 30 year old.
3. The UN has power it does not and never did have. The UN is great step but it is not a world government. Individual nations must still protect themselves. When the Baltics decided to go nuts and kill each other the UN did not step in and make peace. It took that bad old USA to take the risk and go inbecause no one else would. It could have been any country besides the US. The point is that the UN did nothing but send "observers" before that. I'm sure they observed plenty.
4. You hold the current US administration liable for crimes committed by leaders long dead or out of power
quote:
So anyone who decides they have a grievance against another country can attack them? Chile could attack the U.S. for harboring Kissinger?
4. When cornered you present wild speculation as fact. An example of this is that the US would "look the other way" if Iraq invaded Kuwait. This is hardly a fact and makes no sense considering that Kuwait is and was an ally and the fact is that we did not look the other way. If we didn't care then why the hell did we have a Gulf War? We would have cut a deal. But that's only one example.
But you have a serious detachment from reality when you think that a country can cause serious damage to US civilians and we will do nothing and just go to the UN that you yourself admit would do nothing. Your argument always ends up being that the US should allow itself to be attacked and any response from the US is a crime.
So it's not that anyone that disagrees with us is an idiot but illogical arguments don't exactly make a case for brilliance.
I'm done with this thread now too. I don't think there is a single thing to add.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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