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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2005 : 16:14:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I seem to have dedicated my life to spitting into the wind... Skepticism is a dirty job I guess.
Indeed, indeed....
Patrick, the Loch Ness "Monster" and Bigfoot are cryptozoology rather than metaphysics. There is no genuine evidence for the existance of either. Lots o' fakes, though, and the tourists just suck it up. It's good. Keeps the cash flowing.
But is there a place in the universe for the metaphysical? Don't know, but I see no reason that such absolutly can not exist. We don't know it all and never will. However, if empirical evidence for such were to be found and verified, it would no longer be metaphysical, would it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 16:45:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
a spiritual person accepts his/her spirituality to be a naturally occurring REality, thus it would cease to be separate from the normal and would in fact be a perfectly normal phenomenon.
I suppose it could seem normal to them, but that doesn't mean that it is an accurate picture of reality. Science is about forming as accurate a picture of reality as possible, and it does this by only reasoning from the evidence.quote:
that science has been unable to prove/disprove it is not at all bothersome to the "spiritual". the word is a misnomer. obe's and nde's, along with a little something called human experience are not "spiritual", just unproven concepts that need more work. the reason i added experience to the group is that this is just as unprovable as an obe, or a ghost.
my point is that it is a little unfair to regard these things as spiritual when the fact of the matter is that there must be some underlying truth to everything, and that anything that happens on the surface is a result of underlying, scientifically understandable process.
You seem to be trying to conflate a conception of reality with reality itself, but the fact remains that some views of reality are completely inaccurate.quote:
metaphysics, though off topic here, is important to regard as not being entirely separate from physics. eventually, the thought is that what we deem metaphyiscal may one day be proven to be a reality.
True, but don't jump the gun. Until it is proven it remains pure speculation and has no place in physics. And don't neglect the more likely possibilty that what we deem metaphysical will never be proven to be a reality.quote:
would issac newton have believed the possibility of radio waves, invisible, undetectable (at that time) radiation that could be used to transmit information? not likely.
Flawed analogy, hindsight is 20/20. You can't look forward in time the same way you can look back.quote:
how much do we really know? conjecture would lead me to believe we know close to nothing about how the universe works, which leaves plenty of room to accomodate the "metaphysical", inasmuch as we just haven't gotten there yet.
Well only as pure speculation. Science is all about the evidence. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 19:45:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
"You were looking at things through binoculars?"
when did i say that?
My mistake, I was skimming through pretty quickly. I don't see where I thought I saw mention of binoculars. I thought it was where you mentioned you saw something with others. I'll have to take the time to go back a read more thoroughly, see if I can see it again. I'm mostly certain I saw it one of you early posts.
quote:
your presumtion as to the motives of a hitherto undiscovered alien species borders on abject arrogance. what could you possibly know, or claim to know, about an intelligent alien civilization and their purported interest in us and our planet? we are not excited about this planet because WE live here. its old news. maybe we have ancestors out there. maybe our life forms are unique. maybe theyre taking genetic samples. who knows? this is not a valid excuse for disbelieving.
The question is rhetorical, not necessarily deserving of an answer. I must be in fine form, a second time this week I've had to explain my trully warped sense of humor.
quote:
Lucky for me your guess is totally off. activelly looking for the unusual does not guarantee that i will find something. in fact, i rarely, if ever, seek these things out. they have always (with one exception) blindsided me.
Um, I think you missed the unconsciously part. I saw a nice meteor flare in the sky, nearly drove off I-90 at 80 mph. When you begin to pay more attention to things in the night sky things that are unfamiliar can seem strange, that doesn't mean they have an origin that is only capable of being explained as 'extra-terrestrial' in origion. Though my meteor was definately extra-terrestrial in origin, it didn't come from earth.
quote:
the first thing i saw was an amorphous glowing ring coast across the sky, and i was indeed interested. the next oddity was a triangle of lights (id just as soon call them stars, and thats what they looked like) moving in perfect unison, the stars betwen them unobstructed (i.e. three distinct lights several arcminutes apart). the list goes on. ive seen about twelve or so questionable things in the sky, not all of which i absolutely believe are extraterrestrial.
Dunno, have seen the Auroras while stationed at NAS Whidbey Island and here at home in CO. As for moving stars, I sometimes have to remind myself that the clouds are what are moving, unless what you saw was moving in relation to other stars. Then could have been landing lights from aircraft. I was stationed on air bases for quite a while, some aircraft configurations can give very strange appearances at night. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 19:51:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
if you knew a bit about quantum physics, my silliness wouldnt seem quite so silly after all.
Unfortunately, your demonstrated knowledge of quantum physics appears to be silly. Specifically:quote:
quantum particles are, according to theory, waves, until there is an observer to look at it.
No. Subatomic particles act like either waves or particles (or both), depending on the situation. You seem to be confusing the map (the mathematics underlying quantum theory) with the terrain (actual subatomic particles). Oh, and you do know that an "observer" is any other particle, right?quote:
some particles can be photographed to be in two places at once.
No. Nobody has ever photographed a subatomic particle.quote:
at such small scales, the laws of physics break down...
Quantum Mechanics includes laws of physics. What you meant to say is that on such small scales, Newtonian physics no longer applies. In other words, at quantum scales, there are still laws of physics, they're just different laws than those we normally encounter.quote:
...begging the question as to how "real" our percieved reality really is.
Utter hogwash. Reality exists, whether we know of any laws, theories or hypotheses which explain reality.quote:
its mostly empty space, as matter is quite insubstantial. i was getting at the vagueness of reality at this level, which was not directly related to this conversation, but was related to my comments on perception and its role in science.
Reality at the quantum level is just as concrete as at higher levels. That it plays by different rules obviously throws you into a headspin, but that has no bearing on perception and its role in science.
On another note:quote:
my be all end all statement on the matter is this: it remains largely unexplained, and skeptics owe it to themselves and others to dig for clues, and find out for themselves, rather than deciding outright that it is not worth serious investigation.
You're assuming that no skeptic has ever looked at these things in detail and found nothing there. Are skeptics to ignore history? Are we to fully investigate every single "light in the sky" from the ground up, or can we - like so many other investigators - work from historical precedents?quote:
i am not a lunatic for making up my mind about it.
No, but you're certainly not a skeptic for having done so.quote:
it is a reasoned reaction to my experiences...
No, it isn't. Here is what your "reasoning" sounds like to me:What's with all these lights in the sky doing odd things? I don't have an explanation, but there are so many of them and so similar that they must either be an alien intelligence or a secret government program. Now, let's see how well that "reasoning" works in other situations:What's with all this "Yu-Gi-Oh" stuff? I don't have an explanation, but there are so many of them and so similar that it must either be an alien intelligence or a secret government program. The fact is, "I don't know" is the "reasoned reaction" to unknown phenomena.
And for all your berating of skeptics for not "digging" into the subject more, I would think that if these "experiences" happen to you as often as you imply, you would go nowhere without a camcorder, a GPS unit, a really good wristwatch, reams of paper and a healthy supply of pens. That way, when asked "when did this happen," or "where were you," or "what did it look like," you'd have ready - and precise - answers available, so that those who are interested in "digging" could actually begin doing so.
It is you, sir, who stymie investigation into your UFO sightings, simply by being ill-prepared. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 20:36:46 [Permalink]
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I must thank HH for taking the time to find the comment about binoculars. I remember specifically thinking of chromatic aberration when I read the post.
I wasn't really using my commentary about why come here as a reason for disbelief. I just happen to think there are other more interesting things to expend that many resourses on in the universe than exploring our little rock.
Well, anyway, Patrick you seem to have made up your mind. I trully don't discount the idea of extra-terrestrials, wasn't it Feynman who made the comment about extra-terrestrial life being everywhere, Don't have Manifold Time by Baxter for quick reference to the exact quote. I just don't think it's visiting here if it's passed it's own heliopause yet.
And Patrick, I'd suggest that you pick up a few books by Carl Sagan. I can't remember which book (most likely Demon Haunted World) he tracked the reporting of UFOs but sightings in the states started really with Betty and (husband's name? Barney?) Hill in the latae 60s/early70s. Only after being reported consistently in the states did it spread overseas to other English speaking european countires, then filter down. Same issues were addressed with regard to Crop Circles in the same fashion by Skeptical Inquirer. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 20:42:26 [Permalink]
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| It's also interesting to note that the biggest UFO group in England shut itself down several years back because the rise in camcorder ownership was correlated strongly with a drop in UFO reports over there. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 22:12:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
... biggest UFO group in England shut itself down several years back because ...
Why does this make me think of the way modern medicine and anti-psychotic drugs were bad for the exorcism business?
Pat, when you started to bring spirituality up, I ventured to guess that this was no mere coincidence, and that your propensity/desire to believe in extraterrestrial visitors is related to your similar tendancies to believe in other metaphysical speculations. If there's a "phenomenon" associated with either, the skeptical view is that it's mostly- if not universally- a psychological one. I think that your filtering and sorting schemes for both observation and other information are being altered by your personal desires and hopes. You likely think some here are closed-minded, your fundamental premise seeming to be that simply because our way of viewing things correlates more strongly with evidence than yours does doesn't make us right. It doesn't... but if you believe in probability and the scientific method, it makes our views much more likely to be true.
RE quantum mechanics, yea, your approximation of these things is "awful crude" but I got your drift, so no biggie. But some of your language led me to suspect that you read an excellent book by Heinz Pagel (physicist, and friend of late Isaac Asimov) which was a guide to quantum theory for the layman... or something very similar to it. It's a good book, but unfortunately, after it was published, New Age "gurus" twisted passages (and referenced him) so as to imply bizarre non-meanings to support their metaphysical balonies. Pagel subsequently wrote a statement to the effect of... "I didn't say any of that crap!"
Speaking of Asimov, one his timeless books... written decades ago... describes the technical problems associated with interplanetary travel in a way that gives non-scientists a real understanding and appreciation of what's involved (sorry, I'll try to find the title... can't immediately recall which.) You'd like the book, and it might change your perspective on some of this (aside... Asimov was awsome!)
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Ron White |
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breakballs
Sockpuppet
53 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 13:17:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
I'll start this one off with an experience, and let the reader decide: what do you call a white dot in the sky chugging along silently, then stopping dead in its tracks, going backwards, stopping again, and then continuing on in the original direction?
well heres what it aint:
it aint no plane
it aint no meteor
it aint no helicopter
it aint no satellite
that means two options: extraterrestrial, or high tech governmental craft.
It means you are an idiot.
If aliens existed, they would have developed an incredible technology to come to our little planet many light years distant from them.
They would not be afraid of us because we have a very ridiculous technology regards to them and, retro burning their engines and going backwards in hovering, they would land in the main square of New York.
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THE BEST HELICOPTER PILOT IN THE WORLD |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 14:40:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by breakballs
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
I'll start this one off with an experience, and let the reader decide: what do you call a white dot in the sky chugging along silently, then stopping dead in its tracks, going backwards, stopping again, and then continuing on in the original direction?
well heres what it aint:
it aint no plane
it aint no meteor
it aint no helicopter
it aint no satellite
that means two options: extraterrestrial, or high tech governmental craft.
It means you are an idiot.
If aliens existed, they would have developed an incredible technology to come to our little planet many light years distant from them.
They would not be afraid of us because we have a very ridiculous technology regards to them and, retro burning their engines and going backwards in hovering, they would land in the main square of New York.
And now not are you a helicopter pilot who is ignorant of the effects of heat on air currents near a fire and a NASA fraud expert but you've managed to become an expert in alien technologies.
Curiouser and couriouser, Alice.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 14:40:19 [Permalink]
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Filthy, you're an evil man!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 14:46:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Filthy, you're an evil man!
I do my humble best.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 18:24:47 [Permalink]
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Patrick I know where you're coming from because in my early teens I got hung up on UFO's and read everything I could on the subject. I could recite the straight line theory, the arc theory the triangle theory all concerning the directionality of flight paths. And I could describe the various shapes of the crafts and there crews. Interestingly back then (late sixties) the now popular grays didn't exist and the most common alien was indistinguishable from a human. I had already started to have doubts concerning UFO's because the various authors contradicted each other. Then I picked up a book called Intelligent Life in the Universe by some guy called Carl Sagan. It didn't turn me around completely but by the end of the book I was well on the path toward critical thinking.
The book also turned me into an amateur astronomer and in the hundreds perhaps thousands of hours observing the sky I've seen many UFO's. But the more time I spend observing the fewer UFO's appear. Not because they avoid me rather because as time goes by I'm better able to identify what I would have initially considered a UFO.
Your amorphous circle of light in the sky reminds me of the time I was out observing and saw a diffuse undulating oval of light silently approaching. Even with binoculars I couldn't figure out what it was until it passed almost directly overhead and I could hear the quack, quack of the flock of geese. The cause of the undulating light were city lights illuminating there underbellies. If they hadn't flown above me I might still be wondering what it was. I've heard similar stories about flocks of birds from other amateur astronomers.
Another example of how the mundane can appear wondrous and mysterious occurred a few weeks ago when I went out on the loading dock at work for a break. Several other people were out there looking up in the sky and following their gaze I saw a very bright point of light about 70 degrees high in a cloudless sky drifting east then west and back east again as well as rising up and down. From the objects movement it was clearly not a plane. Determined to find out what it was I headed for my car to get my binoculars. I hadn't taken more than a half-dozen steps when the true nature of the object jumped out at me. It was a dandelion about 15-20 feet high stuck in the thermals created by the building. The sun-dandelion-observing angle was just right to reflect sunlight off the seed to the observers making it appear very bright. The angle also caused the… oops don't know what the technical name for the fussy stuff surrounding the seed itself is called can someone help me? Anyway just as the right sun angle can make the wings disappear on an airplane flying overhead that stuff was invisible from the original observing angle and changing the observing angle slightly caused it to pop into view.
So if the members of this board don't jump on your bandwagon it's because we've all seen and heard it before. Some people like me have actually been where you are and had to claw our way out of the darkness and into the light. And I found out a very long time ago that reality is a lot more magnificent than wild speculations and wishful thinking could ever be.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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Patrick Hennessey
New Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 23:21:09 [Permalink]
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"It means you are an idiot.
If aliens existed, they would have developed an incredible technology to come to our little planet many light years distant from them.
They would not be afraid of us because we have a very ridiculous technology regards to them and, retro burning their engines and going backwards in hovering, they would land in the main square of New York."
Your immaturity makes my head spin. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 07:37:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
"It means you are an idiot.
If aliens existed, they would have developed an incredible technology to come to our little planet many light years distant from them.
They would not be afraid of us because we have a very ridiculous technology regards to them and, retro burning their engines and going backwards in hovering, they would land in the main square of New York."
Your immaturity makes my head spin.
Heh, he's always like that. Don't bother. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 14:59:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Hennessey
"It means you are an idiot.
If aliens existed, they would have developed an incredible technology to come to our little planet many light years distant from them.
They would not be afraid of us because we have a very ridiculous technology regards to them and, retro burning their engines and going backwards in hovering, they would land in the main square of New York."
Your immaturity makes my head spin.
For weeks now he's maintained that it's impossible to balance and hover on a retro-thruster, hence the moon landing had to be a hoax. I wonder what made him change his mind? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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