|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 11/10/2005 : 07:59:22 [Permalink]
|
I don't know why but this story has always just tickled me.
quote:
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the Earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."
The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?"
"You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
|
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
 |
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:43:27 [Permalink]
|
ID cannot be taught as science in school because the way I see things it will always come back to the Christian God. One argument that is always brought up to me is that if an intelligent being created everything, why are there so many flaws found in nature. Why are there hurricanes, corrosion, illness and death? The only way to explain why these things exist is through the Bible. Because if you don't, then you have to conclude that we have an incompetent creator or just a plain mean creator.
On a different note, is there any way to test or recreate an evolutionary process?
|
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 10:19:28 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
ID cannot be taught as science in school because the way I see things it will always come back to the Christian God.
If that's true, then how is there such a position like deist? It is possible to say that someone create the universe, but I have no freakin' clue who.
ID cannot be taught as a science because it simply isn't.
I think he meant it'll always come back to the Christian God because those proposing ID -are- doing so with the express intent of bringing the Christian God around, not because it's impossible it was someone else. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 10:30:33 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
ID cannot be taught as science in school because the way I see things it will always come back to the Christian God.
If that's true, then how is there such a position known as deist? It is possible to say that someone create the universe, but I have no freakin' clue who.
ID cannot be taught as a science because it simply isn't.
I am not totally convinced that ID is not science but I am convinced that people are using it to introduce God into school and specifically the Christian God and has its roots in religion and not science. They want to promote religion, not science.
Yes, you can claim that a God created everything without naming the God. But then you don't have an answer to why things are messed up here on earth? If you want an answer then the Bible can give you one. I am not ruling out that other religions cannot give you an answer as well. My point is that religion will always at some point come into the discussion of ID and it is innapropriate to discuss religion in science class. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 10:42:47 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
On a different note, is there any way to test or recreate an evolutionary process?
Yes. Build a subway in London. Introduce a species of mosquito into that subway. Feed them on transient or resident populations of rats and humans. Provide small pools of water as breeding ponds. Effectively eliminate the need for reproductive contact with their original populations outside the subway. Allow time for breeding through a few hundred generations... maybe 100 years or so. Test the mosquitoes, both genetically and by attempting to breed with their former populations.
The results of this actual unintentional experiment even show that a few different new species can be found in various isolated sections of the London subway system. Apparently there are several other experiments that can be done to successfully recreate the evolution process. I expect others can provide some good references to these. And most of them probably require much less extensive excavation and construction than building a complete subway system. 
I had a link to a very comprehensive article on the London subway mosquito, but I couldn't find it. Here is a short description: London Underground Source of New Insect Forms
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 10:44:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I am not totally convinced that ID is not science but I am convinced that people are using it to introduce God into school and specifically the Christian God and has its roots in religion and not science. They want to promote religion, not science.
Yes, you can claim that a God created everything without naming the God. But then you don't have an answer to why things are messed up here on earth? If you want an answer then the Bible can give you one. I am not ruling out that other religions cannot give you an answer as well. My point is that religion will always at some point come into the discussion of ID and it is innapropriate to discuss religion in science class.
I usually find Christian apologetics to be vacuous. I now find Intelligent Design apologetics to be confusing.
Robb, if ID is science then
1. State the theory of intelligent design.
2. What predictions can be made based upon this theory?
3. How can the ID theory be falsified?
4. What research supports ID?
5. What peer reviewed science journals have the ID researchers published their findings?
Having read the cross examination of Michael Behe, a leading ID proponent, in the Dover trial I anticipate your answer to be, "Well it just looks designed." |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 11:05:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
On a different note, is there any way to test or recreate an evolutionary process?
That depends on how you are thinking... What you think is "to test".
One way to test the theory of evolution is to make a statement that is consistent with the theory, make a logical conclusion of what should be the result.
For instance: We know that retro-viruses leaves traces of themselves in the genome of the host. If the infected host happens to be the common ancestor of two different species, then traces of exactly the same retro-virus should appear on exactly the same place in the genome (of course, it may have a few mutations in them, that should also be consistent with our knowledge of mutations in the genome).
Then we examine the genome of a few species we believe to be related, for example human, chimpanzee, and gorilla. During this examination we find several retro-virus leftovers. One that fits all three, showing that all three had the same ancestor. Then we find two viruses that are shared between human and chimp but not gorilla, the conclusion is that human anc chimp had an acestor that was not an acestor to the gorilla. Finally we find viruses that are unique to all three species.
That was a test that was applied to show that genetics support the theory of evolution.
Then what about recreating an evolutionary process? Well it is possible, but remember, with a genome closing on a billion base pair, a mutation is unlikely to occur in the same place any time soon.
So if you were to try to recreate in the lab an event recorded in nature, good luck. In the end the effects might be the same, but the genome will be different, as will the biological sollutions to the problems faced that forced the evolution.
Species adapt over many generations, and unless you study a species with generation span of a day or two, it will take a long time to make a speciation. The London Subway Mosquito are now considered a separate species from its surface swelling cousins, but it took a hundred years.
Then of course there are computer simulations, but the question is how valid such are.
Simulations have solved problems in novel ways that was completely unexpected, I've been told. Sollutions that wasn't in the system to start with. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/10/2005 14:26:38 |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 11:15:34 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
My point is that religion will always at some point come into the discussion of ID and it is innapropriate to discuss religion in science class.
I agree, a significant portion, if not majority, of ID is Creationists. But why is it that you say religion will always come into the discussion? I don't see how you can go from "Some created the universe, and we don't know who." to "The Christian God created the universe." That is quite a big jump. Why does it have to take place?
I don't think I have articulated my thoughts very well. I will try again.
You can teach evolution without ever talking about our origins. You can say you don't know how life started but this is how you came to be after life was formed or created. If you teach ID, then the question should be asked who or what created us and for what purpose? If you teach that there is design in the universe and that someone or something is behind it all I think you need to have some theories as to who that is and why. One theory will have to be that God created everything. I did not say that it has to be the Christian God. But religion will have to be talked about as a plausable answer.
I brought up the Christian God because I get asked by people that if the Universe was created by a God, why is it so messed up. Is he incompetent or mean? I know that the Bible can answer these questions and possibly other religions can as well. I know that the Bible adequately explains (not proves) why the earth is not perfect in design while maintaining a perfect God created us. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 11:39:31 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
If you teach ID, then the question should be asked who or what created us and for what purpose?
I disagree with this point because I don't understand why it should be asked. Is it not ok to be a deist?
Religion doesn't have to enter ID. It certainly can, and in many cases does, but it doesn't have to. You can separate the two from one another.
You can, but will it? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 12:22:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
If you teach ID, then the question should be asked who or what created us and for what purpose?
I disagree with this point because I don't understand why it should be asked. Is it not ok to be a deist?
Religion doesn't have to enter ID. It certainly can, and in many cases does, but it doesn't have to. You can separate the two from one another.
So, your a student of ID and you come to the conclusion that everything was designed, would that be ok with you? or would you have the nagging question why and by whom? Even if you are a deist. I think it is the logical next question if ID is true. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 12:49:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
I am not totally convinced that ID is not science but I am convinced that people are using it to introduce God into school and specifically the Christian God and has its roots in religion and not science. They want to promote religion, not science.
Yes, you can claim that a God created everything without naming the God. But then you don't have an answer to why things are messed up here on earth? If you want an answer then the Bible can give you one. I am not ruling out that other religions cannot give you an answer as well. My point is that religion will always at some point come into the discussion of ID and it is innapropriate to discuss religion in science class.
I usually find Christian apologetics to be vacuous. I now find Intelligent Design apologetics to be confusing.
Robb, if ID is science then
1. State the theory of intelligent design.
2. What predictions can be made based upon this theory?
3. How can the ID theory be falsified?
4. What research supports ID?
5. What peer reviewed science journals have the ID researchers published their findings?
Having read the cross examination of Michael Behe, a leading ID proponent, in the Dover trial I anticipate your answer to be, "Well it just looks designed."
I think your 5 questions will help me to make that determination and thank you for them. But I think you misread my post, I am not sure that ID is science, your post seems to be belittleing me because I have not made up my mind. You have assummed by the quote you used that I will defend ID no matter what because of my belief in God. I do believe we were created by God but I do not know if it can be translated into a science.
|
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
|
|
|
Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 12:57:18 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
On a different note, is there any way to test or recreate an evolutionary process?
Yes. Build a subway in London. Introduce a species of mosquito into that subway. Feed them on transient or resident populations of rats and humans. Provide small pools of water as breeding ponds. Effectively eliminate the need for reproductive contact with their original populations outside the subway. Allow time for breeding through a few hundred generations... maybe 100 years or so. Test the mosquitoes, both genetically and by attempting to breed with their former populations.
The results of this actual unintentional experiment even show that a few different new species can be found in various isolated sections of the London subway system. Apparently there are several other experiments that can be done to successfully recreate the evolution process. I expect others can provide some good references to these. And most of them probably require much less extensive excavation and construction than building a complete subway system.
I had a link to a very comprehensive article on the London subway mosquito, but I couldn't find it. Here is a short description: London Underground Source of New Insect Forms
This was a good link, Thanks. I do not mean to be too simplistic or difficult but they are still both mosquitoes correct? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 11/10/2005 12:58:08 |
|
|
 |
|
Topic Locked
