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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 11/29/2005 : 16:42:19 [Permalink]
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For those who want to celebrate the Solstice in [i[style[/i], complete instructions for a Saturnalia ritual can be found here  
Thanks to Rodney Anonymous for including the link in The Thoughtless for the Day |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 20:25:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Seems like Falwell thinks he's on a roll. And even before the first volley was fired, City Hall caved. [ ]
(and from Boston Herald:)
Just after a top lawyer for the conservative Liberty Counsel blasted the Hub's annual “holiday tree” ceremony, a Menino administration official scrambled to do damage control.
“This is a Christmas tree,” Boston Parks Commissioner Toni Pollak insisted about the Nova Scotia spruce the city will light Dec. 1 on historic Boston Common. “It's definitely a Christmas tree.”
Actually the "Christmas tree" or "Holiday tree" has Pagan origins. According to some websites:
* Ancient Egyptians kept date palm evergreens for religious purposes.
* Ancient Romans celebrated the winter solstice (called "Saturnalia") and decorated buildings with evergreens, lamps, and even exchanged pastry gifts.
* Ancient Huns hung ornaments on trees to ward off evil spirits. (Not sure what those ornaments were, but they might have included skulls, etc.)
* Druids supposedly used evergreens in winter solstice festivals.
* Germans and Scandinavians decorated evergreen trees near their dwellings to celebrate the coming of Spring.
The modern Christmas or Holiday tree has every reason to be part of any kind end-of-year secular or religious celebration, and is not exclusively Christian. (Then there is the aluminum pole found in "Festivus".)
Different points of view on the Christmas tree:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=christmas+tree+origins |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 00:33:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Actually the "Christmas tree" or "Holiday tree" has Pagan origins.
Many christian holidays and rituals are from other, older, religious practices. It is how the Romans enforced christianity when the empire finally adopted it. They took many pagan rituals and holidays, renamed them, retooled them a little, and incorporated them into the new religion.
You just can't force a nation of sunworshipers (Invictus Sol) from celebrating the winter solstice. It is the most important day of the year for them, representing the rebirth of the sun and all that. So you rename the holiday, make up a reason why your religion is celebrating on this day, and throw a bigger party than the other guys. When it is sponsored by the government it won't take long for everyone to be dancing to the new tune.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 03:01:30 [Permalink]
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Like we didn't see this coming?quote:
House Speaker Dennis Hastert issued a directive renaming the "Holiday Tree" on the West Lawn of the U.S. Capitol as the "Capitol Christmas Tree."
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2005 : 05:34:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Actually the "Christmas tree" or "Holiday tree" has Pagan origins.
Many christian holidays and rituals are from other, older, religious practices.
I don't recall the source (couldn't find it either), but it indicated the bible contains just two original constructs, sin and the devil. My memory may be faulty though.
Since the bible doesn't identify the date of jesus birth that is another cooption of pagan tradition for the same reason as listed previously in this thread. However, in a book by Joseph Wheles "Is it God's Word?" the case is made for jesus birth being in the fall using verses from the bible.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/is_it_gods_word/ |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2005 : 19:35:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
... However, in a book by Joseph Wheles "Is it God's Word?" the case is made for jesus birth being in the fall using verses from the bible.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_wheless/is_it_gods_word/
An entire book is a bit much for a reference and I couldn't find (grew tired of looking) the exact chapter and page for a fall birth. In Chapter 14 in "The Dateless Nazarene" section he does raise issues concerning the lack of a specific date for jesus birth.
quote:
for Christians the most momentous figure of history, ignore such dates or muddle them beyond even approximate probability.
Claiming that biographers of historical people strive for exactness of dates of birth and death.
Only two of the gospel authors even try to approximate his date of birth. Matt II.1, Matt II.16
quote:
if Herod died immediately after the massacre of the innocents, which is not likely. Matthew thus lays the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. at the earliest.
Luke II 1-7
quote:
Luke makes out the birth to have been at earliest in the year 7 A.D. or thirteen years later.
Well, nothing new here, just another reminder that the bible is just fabulous. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 12/01/2005 19:37:33 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2005 : 11:10:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Luke makes out the birth to have been at earliest in the year 7 A.D. or thirteen years later.
Well, nothing new here, just another reminder that the bible is just fabulous.
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