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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 11/22/2005 : 10:34:26
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I have never heard of this word until today reading Peter Russels From Science to God.... the paradigm behind the paradigms.. he says
quote:
All our Scientific paradigms are based on the assumption that the physical world is the real world, and that space,time,matter, and energy are the fundamental compomets of reality. when we fully understand the functioning of the physical world,we, will, it is believed , be able to explain everything in the cosmos,
Correct?
quote:
Scientists are in the strange position of being confronted daily by the indisputable fact of their own consciousness, yet with no way of explaining it - Christian de Quincey
What is it that we have named Consciousness? Does it only exist because of the body? or does the body exist only because of it,,this that we call Consciousness
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 10:41:14 [Permalink]
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de Quincey makes the same mistakes most people do when talking about science and how it attempts to explain reality. It seems they assume that science has the answers to EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW, and if it doesn't, then <insert supernatural explanation.> Modern science has only been around for an extremely short amount of time. Why do these people expect science to already know all these answers?
de Quincey says "no way of explaining it", obviously stating that science will NEVER EVER be able to explain it. I guess de Quincey has the ability to see hundreds or thousands of years into the future and can abosolutely predict with 100% certainty that science will NEVER EVER be able to explain it.
And scienctist are the ones in a strange position?
<edited for grammar> |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 11/22/2005 10:42:06 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 10:53:03 [Permalink]
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Not correct, personally I do not expect humans to ever understand everything.
Lets say we find long extinct alien bones on planet Z, they evolved on planet Krypton which was destroyed long ago. We will never understand that species more than a little.
Consciousness is an abstract concept and may never be properly explained or understood by humans, but that doesnt mean we jump to Matrix like explanations. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 11:00:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Scientists are in the strange position of being confronted daily by the indisputable fact of their own consciousness, yet with no way of explaining it - Christian de Quincey
Show me how it differs from:
quote:
Scientists are in the strange position of being confronted daily by the indisputable fact that things fall down, yet with no way of explaining it.
or
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Scientists are in the strange position of being confronted daily by the indisputable fact that the tides rise and fall, yet with no way of explaining it.
Said a couple centuries ago.
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"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 11:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Not correct, personally I do not expect humans to ever understand everything.
Lets say we find long extinct alien bones on planet Z, they evolved on planet Krypton which was destroyed long ago. We will never understand that species more than a little.
Consciousness is an abstract concept and may never be properly explained or understood by humans, but that doesnt mean we jump to Matrix like explanations.
And I think you are not correct BigPapa. Never say never. It may very well be possible (SOME DAY) to know virtually everything about aliens who existed on planet Z, from planet Krypton. I also think it is possible to know every detail of consciousness, just not yet. You may be partially right, in that it might not be "humans" that figure all of this out. Maybe "post humans" or "AI" or some combination of the two. To say we will never know what consciousness is or how it works, is like saying humans will never develop the technology for flight. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 11/22/2005 11:32:24 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 11:13:40 [Permalink]
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| Key word in my post: [may] never. I hold the possibility open for everything, including God/Matrix, however much they disgust me. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 12:55:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Not correct, personally I do not expect humans to ever understand everything.
Lets say we find long extinct alien bones on planet Z, they evolved on planet Krypton which was destroyed long ago. We will never understand that species more than a little.
Consciousness is an abstract concept and may never be properly explained or understood by humans, but that doesnt mean we jump to Matrix like explanations.
I didn't mean to say humans will understand EVERYTHING...personally I think we will extinct ourselves/get extincted ;-) long before that could happen. But I do think we can understand a lot more than we do now, including the item under discussion. But, never say never! :-) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 13:08:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
I have never heard of this word until today reading Peter Russels From Science to God.... the paradigm behind the paradigms.. he says
quote:
All our Scientific paradigms are based on the assumption that the physical world is the real world, and that space,time,matter, and energy are the fundamental compomets of reality. when we fully understand the functioning of the physical world,we, will, it is believed , be able to explain everything in the cosmos,
Correct?
No, incorrect. It is true that many scientists hold this position, know as realism. But there are some (mostly in the Philosophy of Science) who disagree, known as anti-realists. They say that only the observable parts of scientific paradigms are real, while the unobservables are not. For example, to an anti-realist, an electron is not real, but merely a model used for predicting. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 14:14:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
All our Scientific paradigms are based on the assumption that the physical world is the real world, and that space,time,matter, and energy are the fundamental compomets of reality. when we fully understand the functioning of the physical world,we, will, it is believed , be able to explain everything in the cosmos,
We can never say (scientifically) that we with 100% certainty fully understand the functioning of the physical world. In order to do that we would have to exclude falsifiability from our reasoning - and that would leave us in the realm of ...... non-science.
Even if we had a REALLY EXCELLENT grasp of the physical world, we still would not be able to explain everything. Historical events such as BigPapaSmurfs alien bones - or why not fossilised bones here on Earth, can never be FULLY explained. We can, in the fossil record, see how species have changed over eons, but we can't say exactly which molecular events took place to bring these changes about. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2005 : 14:56:54 [Permalink]
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| I guess my distiction was between "understanding" and 100% explanation. We understand evolution, but cannot at this point (if ever) provide a 100% accurate explanation. I apologize for my diction. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2005 : 12:25:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Scientists are in the strange position of being confronted daily by the indisputable fact of their own consciousness, yet with no way of explaining it - Christian de Quincey
Storm, after all this time here on these boards you STILL refuse to learn about science and the scientific method.
Also, apparently, you are ignorant (and so is the author of the book you are quoting to us, and so is the guy the book quotes) of the many ongoing research programs that are seeking to explain human consciousness.
You, Storm, and the book you are quoting, are doing nothing more than presenting an argument from incredulity. Just because there isn't a full understanding of human consciousness now doesn't mean that there won't be tomorrow.
Human consciousness is viewed by most scientists as one of the "hard" questions. The fields of science that will allow us insights into our own consciousness are also fairly new. The human brain is incredibly complex and delicate, making the study of it (without causing irreparable harm) impossible until very recently.
So please, leave the tired old god-of-the-gaps at home. Go, as we have been begging of you, and LEARN about science and the scientific method. Pick up a couple of those books we reccomended to you a while back, about logic and critical thinking, and actually READ them. Please.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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