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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2005 : 23:13:21 [Permalink]
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Having faith in something is perhaps a two-edged sword. One side could lead to simpleminded acceptance of superstition and lack of critical thinking, (not to mention being controlled by others.) The other side, (the secular side of faith,) harbors intuition, inspiration, imagination and maybe leads to innovation. As when a designer says: "I have faith that this new airfoil will fly --- (but let's run it through computer models and wind tunnel tests to make sure, and see why.") I suspect the latter starts out as a feeling, but is actually based on deep-seated knowledge.
Anyway, I remember as a kid, with Santa Claus, my parents would say he's a fairytale, but then added that mysteriously, the snack cookies were gone, and the milk had been drunk. I know now that they applied this doubt in reverse to Santa to introduce to me the intrigue of the undiscovered in an otherwise predictable world. Maybe that's why I later liked science so much, yet still get a kick out of movies such as "Miracle on 34th Street" and "Polar Express", not to mention "The Wizard of Oz" which, though not a Xmas movie, was an annual magical event in my childhood household.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 03:20:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
beskeptical wrote: Marfknox, lighten up.
I prefaced my comments by saying that I had no problem with other people teaching their kids about Santa Claus. I clearly made my comments to share opinions I have and perhaps generate more discussion. By saying "lighten up" are you saying I should give in to the social pressure to tell my kids about Santa Claus despite the opinions I've formed, or are you saying I should not share those opinions about the matter with others?
I merely meant to let your kids be kids. There are certain childhood rituals that kids keep memories of forever. I remember trying to stay up to see Santa, and never quite making it, not my parents being dishonest. I remember the look on my son's face when he woke up to an Easter basket full of candy and toys the first time. Hey, Mom gives you stuff all the time, but Easter and Christmas and Halloween are special. And the fantasy is part of the fun when kids are very young. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 03:32:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ljbrs
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My younger brother believed in Santa Claus until he was a teenager and he received many, many extra presents for being a true believer. ...
ljbrs
That's just plain wrong. Mom loved your brother best or something? That could warp a kid, for sure. 
For a parent to reward believing in Santa, there has to be more to that. I don't know of anyone who changed what they gave their kids for Xmas when the kids found out where the presents really came from. What you give changes as kids get older, but not because they do or don't believe in Santa.
Well I had a pretty normal childhood and I grew up to be a very science oriented skeptic. My brother, with the same upbringing except birth order and gender is a church going believer who buys things like an Ionic Breeze and you can't tell him it's a fraud. Even with debunking evidence he'd still think it was worth his $400. He also happens to believe Bush is good for the country.
We both certainly had the same Xmas experiences. (Non religious house BTW. We went to Sunday school and vacation Bible school on a very irregular basis and I don't recall our parents ever went. They just dropped us off.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 05:01:37 [Permalink]
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I have long been accused of having a, let us be kind and say:"dry" rather than "sick" sense of humor. The following incident took place in the late '70s.
My girl friend had a daughter slightly older, about age 8 if memory serves, than my own pair, who were with their mother that Easter. Jane wanted me to have Easter dinner at her house, and, as I'm pretty good with stove and skillet, asked if I'd cook it. I readily agreed.
Now, I had a friend who raised meat rabbits on a semi-commercial basis, and I asked him to dress off a couple for me, then prepared a good, southern brunswick stew, which I finished cooking at her place. Deanna, her daughter, thought it was delicious, and if I might say so, it was one of my better efforts -- no leftovers. Then she asked me what was in it....
I told her that it was a traditional dish of the season -- you already see where this went, don't you -- made from the Easter Bunny. The resulting Shock & Outrage didn't last long and we had a fine Easter.
I am not sure that Deanna or Jane for that matter, ever forgave me for that; not so much due to eating the Easter Bunny, as she was well beyond that myth, but because I was responsible for the hiring the murder of a couple of cute & fluffies, and made her and her mother accessorys after the fact.
Never the less, no one was permenantly scarred and we have remained friends for all these years.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 09:46:50 [Permalink]
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These arguements lack merit, do you really think it requires the fantasy for children to enjoy a bunch of presents and candy? Why not save them the stress of "dear god dont let santa think Im bad". Notice how many adults are crazy about Christmas long after they stop believing.
I also get the feeling that if you just gave your kid a dollar for the tooth instead of the normal ritual he/she would be just as pleased. (not to mention the whole what if the kid didnt tell you the tooth fell out problem)
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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UncleJ
New Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 12:28:26 [Permalink]
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My wife tried the whole “be good cause Santa is watching” routine on our 5-year old daughter. She thought about it for a second, smiled and said “well I don't think I was really all that good last year and I still got a bunch of toys.”
Now I'm thinking about giving her extra toys this xmas as a reward for being a skeptic!
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"The Church says the Earth is flat. But I know that it is round. For I have seen the shadow on the Moon. And I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church." - F. Magellan
"I can't be a missionary! I don't even believe in Jebus!" - H. Simpson |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 12:47:41 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote:
...but because I was responsible for the hiring the murder of a couple of cute & fluffies, and made her and her mother accessorys after the fact.
You ever hear that satirical stand-up comedy bit by Dennis Leary where he talks about how we only eat the animals that aren't cute. Very funny stuff. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 13:01:59 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote: I merely meant to let your kids be kids. There are certain childhood rituals that kids keep memories of forever. I remember trying to stay up to see Santa, and never quite making it, not my parents being dishonest. I remember the look on my son's face when he woke up to an Easter basket full of candy and toys the first time. Hey, Mom gives you stuff all the time, but Easter and Christmas and Halloween are special. And the fantasy is part of the fun when kids are very young.
Yes, yes, you obviously have happy memories of Santa. Surely you'd be a bitter miserable scrooge in December if you didn't have those precious memories.
You still have yet to back up your claim that adults promoting the Santa myth is better than adults being honest with kids about it. You have not responded to the article I posted that said a quarter of kids believing in the Santa myth end up suffering for it. You are also telling me, a non-Christian, to "let your kids be kids" despite the fact that Santa is a Christian myth. Would you encourage a Hindu to tell their kids about Santa? Again, I've not once argued here that no parents should tell their kids Santa is real. I've simply pointed out that there are many down sides to it that cause me to personally opt out. And for that I get "Lighten up" and mini-sermon about the importance of childhood fantasies? The only reason you've given as to why my kids should believe in Santa is for possible happy future memories. I really hope my kids' happy memories involve their REAL family and friends more than some imaginary creatures. I know mine do. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/13/2005 13:03:26 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 01:33:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
beskeptical wrote: I merely meant to let your kids be kids.
Yes, yes, you obviously have happy memories of Santa. Surely you'd be a bitter miserable scrooge in December if you didn't have those precious memories.
I didn't say one would be harmed without Santa, merely that it was innocent fun so let the kids enjoy it while they can.quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
You still have yet to back up your claim that adults promoting the Santa myth is better than adults being honest with kids about it. You have not responded to the article I posted that said a quarter of kids believing in the Santa myth end up suffering for it. You are also telling me, a non-Christian, to "let your kids be kids" despite the fact that Santa is a Christian myth. Would you encourage a Hindu to tell their kids about Santa? Again, I've not once argued here that no parents should tell their kids Santa is real. I've simply pointed out that there are many down sides to it that cause me to personally opt out. And for that I get "Lighten up" and mini-sermon about the importance of childhood fantasies? The only reason you've given as to why my kids should believe in Santa is for possible happy future memories. I really hope my kids' happy memories involve their REAL family and friends more than some imaginary creatures. I know mine do.
OK, Marf. Though it is difficult to assess that PR web site in one visit, here's my take on the article:quote:
December 7, 2004 -- Children who still believe in Santa Claus after the age of eight, are at risk of being ostracized and made fun of by the majority of non believers -- Their peers. They are more likely to find out that Santa is only make believe, in a cruel fashion from their peers, opposed to their parents gently breaking the news.
Los Angeles child Psychologist, Robert R. Butterworth, Ph.D., advises parents to, "answer all questions about Santa Claus in a way that doesn't insult their child's age or intelligence but if a child is in the third grade, they are ready and able to accept the premise that to believe in the existence of Santa Claus isn't logical."
When a child nears this stage, they will begin to question: The ability of one man to deliver a virtually infinite number of presents in one night to children all over the world; . How a fat man can fit down a chimney; The fact that reindeer can't fly; How to justify the number of Santa Claus' that appear in department stores and street corners; How Santa knows if a child has been good in the past year.
The author left out the most important question a kid might ask, "Why did I get x, y, z, and those kids on the TV got nothing?"quote:
According to Butterworth who reviewed the past psychological research pertaining to children and Santa Claus, "Studies indicate that only 25 percent of eight-year-olds believe in Santa Claus, with over half, 55 percent of eight-year-olds going through a transitional period in which they are undecided on whether he exists. the majority of children under 7 believe with 85 percent at age 4 solid believers in Santa."
That seems about right. I think I was surprised my son believed in Santa as late as he did, though I recall it was closer to 6 or 7. I had an older brother who broke the news to me a bit earlier.quote:
Butterworth found that belief in Santa after the age of eight, when most don't believe, can confuse a child and can possibly be detrimental to a child's social development. "Children who still believe in Santa after the age of eight, are at risk of being ostracized and made fun of by the majority of non believers--their peers. They are more likely to find out that Santa is only make believe, in a cruel fashion from their peers, opposed to their parents gently breaking the news," Dr. Butterworth said.
So what is the evidence here that being made fun of over this particular issue is so traumatic as to have a lasting effect? This guy's opinion? Where's the study?
He's essentially saying the kids who figure it out last get made fun of. Welcome to normal childhood. Kids get made fun of for everything. I doubt this particular event would have any significant impact.quote:
"When unmasking Santa, it is important to explain to children that Santa, (Saint Nicholas) did exist and he represents the spirit of Christmas that is still alive in all of us," says the psychologist.
It's hardly that complicated. When kids ask, then answer the question, "well yes honey, it really was us giving you the presents, Santa is indeed just make believe."
The, "Saint Nick did exist" sounds like something a 'good Christian' is supposed to tell little Johnny lest he miss the fact Xmas is really about baby Jesus.quote:
Make-believe behavior is an important part of Socialization and cognitive growth. "I encourage childhood fantasies, the little wonders that make this world a better place for our youngsters, but when childhood fantasies collide with the belief of their peers, these fantasies can lead to conflict and confusion," according to Dr. Butterworth.
It certainly sounds like this guy agrees with me here. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 01:41:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by UncleJ
My wife tried the whole “be good cause Santa is watching” routine on our 5-year old daughter. She thought about it for a second, smiled and said “well I don't think I was really all that good last year and I still got a bunch of toys.”
Now I'm thinking about giving her extra toys this xmas as a reward for being a skeptic!
That's cute. Kids are so much smarter than we give them credit for, aren't they?
I never pulled the, 'be good or else' crap about Xmas. That's a definite no no unless you are prepared to carry out the threat. There is no need to use such a serious consequence when so many less serious ones get the job done.
Now you are talking about well researched parenting skills. Do not ask the question if you aren't prepared to accept the answer and don't make the threat you don't intend to carry out.
You don't ask something like, "don't you want to be good so Santa will bring you a present?" You ask, "do you want to do what I say this way, or that way?" source: Parenting 101. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 05:47:46 [Permalink]
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| Great, but what about all the songs and books which DO tell your children that they had better be good, or else. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 06:47:09 [Permalink]
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My parents kept up the Santa Claus myth until I started disbelieving around age 7. They did, however, make it a big point every year to instruct us kids on the difference between the fantasy of television commercials and the reality of the products they hawked. We'd make one or two "window shopping" trips to toy stores so that we could see the toys' actual size and capabilities. As a result, I made up my Christmas wish list from the pages of the Edmund Scientific Co. catalog rather than the Sears or JC Penney toy catalog. Thirty-five-plus years later I still have my magnet, lens, fossil, and puzzle collections from childhood, as well as a healthy skepticism about advertising claims.
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- TW
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