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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/11/2001 : 02:24:10
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 02:42:22 [Permalink]
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Normally, I'm Very Skeptical, about this sort of thing, but if there is Anything to it, at all, shouldn't we at least, make the attempt.
Remember, being skeptical means that you should remain open to New Evidence, no matter how stupid, something may, at first, appear.
Of course, one also, shouldn't go too far. An example from the last, oh let's hope that it's the Last, Great War, was how Heinrich Himmler came up with U-Boat assignments; thanks to desperation, and a Belief that Allied Radar was instead Map Divination, he resorted to it, himself. Many a U-Boat Commander, in the last year of the War, received his orders, not only from Himmler, but from a Pendulum, swung over a Map!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away.
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 11/11/2001 03:52:18
Edited by - ZaphodBeeblebrox on 11/11/2001 03:53:08 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 03:51:51 [Permalink]
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Any of these "remote viewers" could have gone after the JREF million bucks before this but did they? Nope. I think you should also ask yourself this: If they are worth anything, where was the fricken warning before September 11th????? The governments previous forays "out of the box" have proved to be a waste of time. I would prefer the government to learn from past mistakes and not waste any of our tax dollars on this nonsense. Being skeptical means having an open mind but not so open your brains fall out.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 04:12:03 [Permalink]
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And normally, I'd agree with you.
Hi Zaphod. How goes the fiord-building?
But the psyhic angle has been beaten to death for millinia with no positive conclusion. I can remember noise about it during Vietman and I've read about it being investigated during WW II (can't document it, though. That was a long while back) and of course, the Soviets had an intense study. Police departments often call one in. The results are almost always negitive. The few times that there's been some success (claimed) falls into the 'Blind Hog' catagory: even a blind hog'll find an acorn now and then.
I think that what we have here is another, relitivly minor, silly excersize in futility. If I were to want to ask a psyhic, I'd look for one that has either hit the lottery twice running, or relieved James Randi of the burden of his million. In short, I can't buy it. I might get a big, fat supprise someday, but I find that highly unlikely. I also think that Randi's money is safer than a if it were in a Swiss bank.
Ragards,
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 07:36:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Police departments often call one in.
Police departments never call in psychics, unless there's public pressure to do so (for example, in cases of disappeared children where there are no leads).
Rather, the psychics go to the police and offer their help. The cops sometimes accept. In my opinion, they do so on the off chance that the self-declared psychic may in fact be connected to the crime in some non-supernatural way, and may therefore have some useful information to give.
Without exception, the psychics' "help" is so vague and general that no crime has ever been solved on the basis of such information. "Hits" claimed by psychics are always post-facto ("See, I told the cops they'd find the victim near water, and the body was found in the desert only half a mile from a buried water main!")
So I agree with atomic: don't waste my #^$&%$ tax dollars on this crap.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 08:10:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Police departments often call one in.
Police departments never call in psychics, unless there's public pressure to do so (for example, in cases of disappeared
children where there are no leads).
-------------------
Bad wording on my part. Thanks for the correction.
The sad part about it all is that there is all too often public pressure to call in a psyhic on these cases.
Still, you'd think that the FBI and CIA would have written the whole extra-sensory flim-flam off a long time ago.
Apparently not.
regards,
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 08:58:24 [Permalink]
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Yeah, the pseudosciences (even that may be generous to the psychics) are Hydra-headed... lop one off and six more pop out somewhere else.
That's what happens when you swing an ape down from the trees and dress him up in Armani... :-D
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 12:15:56 [Permalink]
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I ain't buying it. What were Drudge's sources? Psychics who say they've been approached by the government. That doesn't mean squat. Remember Sylvia Browne's blather on Larry King? She claims to have helped all sorts of law enforcement agencies. Nice story, if it was true. It sounds like these "psychics" are doing a little bit of self-promotion, and they actually got an idiot reporter to give it ink.
I'd be very disappointed if our tax dollars were actually going into something like this. Use the money to build a few more bombs, and leave the psychics at the carnival.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 15:46:33 [Permalink]
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I still ain't buying it. "Thinking outside the box" doesn't automatically translate to "throw money down a rathole and hire some quacks".
A more likely scenerio: psychics contact government agency and offer services. Agency politely replies "Um, sure. Tell us if you come up with anything." Viola! Psychics consider themselves on the job.
The remote viewing wasn't shut down because of the end of the cold war. The remote viewing studies were stopped because they didn't work. The guy in charge of the program was a huge psi believer. An independent auditor took a peek at the program and concluded some of the data was slightly fudged. Okay, totally fudged. At this point the government decided that money could be better spent on more useful studies, like cow burps. Of course much bitching and complaining ensued. Who wouldn't want a job like that? These people were farting through silk. Now they have to look for real work.
I really liked the part in the article "it could be a stadium". Well duh. A terrorist is going to want mass-casualty, mass destruction. Elsewhere on this board someone has suggested an explosive laden boat at a busy port. If that comes true, is he psychic? No. He's simply recognized the terrorists goals and come up with a likely scenario.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 16:09:46 [Permalink]
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Hey, I don't write 'em, I just find 'em.
The reason all of this works is that we'd all, even me and thee, love to have the ability. Many of us would love to so much that they refuse to believe that it's not so. Thus the success of Jeane Dixon, et al. And thus, I'd not be at all suprised that the article might be close to correct (nut-cases and psi grifters show up at office unannounced and get welcomed with open arms). But then I have even less faith in human nature than most. Or, depending on how ya look at it, perhaps more.
Regards,
f
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Grove
New Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 18:12:43 [Permalink]
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| Who is this ZaphodBeeble? How does he find time to get on here between calling the psychic hotline and playing with his ouija board? |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 20:06:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Who is this ZaphodBeeble? How does he find time to get on here between calling the psychic hotline and playing with his ouija board?
We still don't need the ad hominems. Attack the position of belief in psychic ability not the person.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2001 : 00:32:26 [Permalink]
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Ed Dames is about the only psycho--sorry, psychic--I have heard much about. He puts bread on the table by selling videotapes on remote viewing. Now, think about that for a minute. If his ability were genuine, he could:
1. Contract with everyone from airlines to the World Health Organization to pinpoint disasters and save lives, money, and property, and make himself filthy rich too.
2. Locate valuable deposits of minerals, oil, gas, and so forth, and thereby better the lot of mankind and make himself filthy rich in the process.
3. Pinpoint movements of enemy troops for any military organization that would hire him, thereby furthering (presumeably) the Good and True political ideologies of the world and, incidentally, making himself filthy rich in the process.
So what's he doing? Flogging videotapes. Ergo: he can't do anything else.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes"
Edited by - Dog_Ed on 11/12/2001 00:33:15 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2001 : 07:56:28 [Permalink]
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If I was about half smart, I probably wouldn't tell you this story. But, I've never been accused of genius, so.......
This happened around 1970.
Back when I got out of the service in '67, I went to live in rural, northern VT. I had a neighbor, a diary farmer, who was often called upon to dowse for water. Now, Gordon never charged anyone for finding water and he firmly believed that he had the 'gift'. One day, when I was visiting, he offered to see if I too, could do it. So, we went out to one of his pastures and I gave it a try.
Gordon's dowsing machinery was simply a couple of pieces of 1/8'' brazing rod bent 90 degrees, with copper tubing handles. The rods swung almost frictionless in the handles. When you were over water, the rods would cross. He also used a wand and a pendulum, but, as I was a beginner, he thought the rods would work better for me.
So, off I went across the field, rods held at just the right angle, as instructed. I hadn't gone 20 feet, when the rods suddenly crossed. Well, cuss me for a mule!!
To say that I was amazed would be a vast understatement.
It took me about a year to get my sanity back, and no, I didn't do any free-lance water-witching in the interm. What I did, I made myself a pair of rods and played around with them. At length I discovered that I WANTED those rods to cross, and it only takes a minute movement of the hands to make them do so. I finally began to catch myself making those almost subconsciencous movements. I have no doubt that Gordon was doing the same thing, but never questioned it. And he never failed to find water.
The reason for his success is that in this area of VT, the water table is such that you can scarcly not find it. Springs and brooks are everywhere. The only trick is in locating the most convient place for the well.
The point is that people WANT to believe in the paranormal. If the FBI and the CIA chose to use physics, the decision will be a popular one, and we can debunk until we're hoarse. it'll change nothing. Whaddahell, Reagan used an astrologer, or was that just Nancy? Anyhow, apart from a little ridicule from a few, grouchy spoil-sports, mostly liberals, nobody got all that excited.
I have no doubt that the grifters will continue to flourish and all but a few, grouchy spoil-sports will applaud them.
Regards.
f
PS: Awesome Bill is back! They're ringin' them bells in Dawsonville!
The more I learn about people, the better I like rattlesnakes. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 00:03:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Springs and brooks are everywhere. The only trick is in locating the most convient place for the well.
The point is that people WANT to believe in the paranormal.
Regards.
f
That reminds me of something I saw on a TV show years ago(I think it was on Colombo). A psyhic said the body would be found near water. Everyone thought it was amazing when that came to be true. But then it was said, well, where don't you find some kind of water somewhere?
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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