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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 12/22/2005 : 07:37:16 [Permalink]
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<much snippage of nonsense>
quote:
and thus far, you have offered exactly nothing but that same bullshit: hand-waving, straw men, and red herrings. If you look at the last couple of links I posted, regarding logical fallicies, you will see what I mean.
(bill) 1. Where are all the TFs that CD predicted we would discover in ABUNDANCE?
2. Please explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the functioning mechanism for TOEs natural selection and how it can program with reason and purpose as TH says it can.
But perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic. If so, I await your answers.
(bill) yes you being pessimistic.
regards Bill
As predicted; the same utter crap. You really are a Hovind acolyte, aren't you. More straw men and red herrings wrapped in a veneer of igborance.
You wanted evolution; I gave you evolution. You wanted transitional fossils, I gave you transitional fossils. Suck it up!
I repeat: I am not going to take you by the hand and lead you. I am not your mother, bless her for her extraordinary patience. I will give you some direction and you are going to have to show some initiative of your own. Bullshit claims and silly fulminatons with no support whatsoever is not initative. It is only noise. And I very much doubt that you have opened a single link that you have been given by others as well as myself.
Now, I have given entirely satisfactory, to any sane and reasonable person, answers to the more reasonable of your questions. It is time for you to reply in kind.
1. What is your version of reality.
2. With what would you replace the ToE in the schools?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 07:56:11 [Permalink]
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I think that it is telling that this thread cropped up in the 'conspiracy theories section. This one may be a nut, but at least he's an (arguably) honest nut.
At least in that instance.
One of the myriad of logical flaws in your rambling, Billy, is you projecting the anthromorphisation of natural processes inherent in your religious worldview into scientific concepts. Of course the process of evolution does not hold the 'end result' in mind. It cannot have anything in mind, that is why it can produce such immensely complex creatures. Any intelligence has an upper limit to how many factors it can take into account. Not so for evolution; what works is passed on - therefore there is no limit to the number of factors that can come into play when creatures evolve.
We are not talking intentions here, we are talking selection pressures. The idea is beautifully simple, the process in infinately complex, like most physical processes.
You however are trying to make the names we give to species some kind of fundamental, divine method of sorting creatures. A mouse does not know that it is a mouse, nor does evolution. Evolution knows nothing. And mouse is a label of our making. Why should evolution take this into account? What is the fundamental difference between micro- and macro- evolution?
And transitional fossilas are all over the place. Go to any museum of your choice that puts fossils on display, they are all transitional fossils. All of the hominids with the exception of ourselves (and the dead ends) are transitional fossils between the australopithecans and modern homo sapiens.
Assuming that your remains fossilize and that your children survive your ignorance, they themselves will one day become transitional fossils. Although I suspect that genetic engineering will render these concepts meaningless in the distant future, at least with reference to humans.
You say that there is no evidence for evolution, but you are ignoring the fact that no rabbit has ever been found in the triassic era; no homo sapien fossil from the same time as the australopithecus afarensis fossils; not one single fossil has ever been found which does not support the evolutionary model of change over time. Why are there no dinosaurs now and no birds then? Evolution.
Forget National Geographic. They are not a proper scientific journal. And forget Charles Darwin, he is only interesting from a historical perspective. Pick up a decent, modern biology textbook. At the moment you have no clue as to what you are talking about. People are going to laugh at you if you spout this sad drivel in public.
You can be so much more than this. Don't let your religion limit you in this way. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:03:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the functioning mechanism for TOEs natural selection and how it can program with reason and purpose as TH says it can.
I can't quite keep up with your acronyms (TH?) but in compliance with your request:
The genome of an organism affects the composition of said organism. The offspring will have a similar but non-identical genome to any and all parents. Organisms with genomes that make themselves more likely to survive and above all reproduce successfully are more likely to have more offspring.
Thus any genes that improve the likelyhood of the survival and reproduction of the organism will be passed on and the traits they produce will be more common. After a sufficient number of generations the descendants will look nothing like the ancestors unless the ancestors were very well adapted to the environment already and any major changes would be detrimental in that environment.
This is the principle of natural selection. It does not require any kind of sentience, memory or knowledge of present or future organisms. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:09:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
<much snippage of nonsense>
quote:
and thus far, you have offered exactly nothing but that same bullshit: hand-waving, straw men, and red herrings. If you look at the last couple of links I posted, regarding logical fallicies, you will see what I mean.
(bill) 1. Where are all the TFs that CD predicted we would discover in ABUNDANCE?
2. Please explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the functioning mechanism for TOEs natural selection and how it can program with reason and purpose as TH says it can.
But perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic. If so, I await your answers.
(bill) yes you being pessimistic.
regards Bill
As predicted; the same utter crap. You really are a Hovind acolyte, aren't you. More straw men and red herrings wrapped in a veneer of igborance.
You wanted evolution; I gave you evolution. You wanted transitional fossils, I gave you transitional fossils. Suck it up!
I repeat: I am not going to take you by the hand and lead you. I am not your mother, bless her for her extraordinary patience. I will give you some direction and you are going to have to show some initiative of your own. Bullshit claims and silly fulminatons with no support whatsoever is not initative. It is only noise. And I very much doubt that you have opened a single link that you have been given by others as well as myself.
Now, I have given entirely satisfactory, to any sane and reasonable person, answers to the more reasonable of your questions. It is time for you to reply in kind.
1. What is your version of reality.
2. With what would you replace the ToE in the schools?
I repeat: I am not going to take you by the hand and lead you. I am not your mother, bless her for her extraordinary patience. I will give you some direction and you are going to have to show some initiative of your own.
(bill) Umm, I never asked you take me anywhere. I asked for your 5 favorite TF displays and their location of display. Nothing about you taking me there. I also asked why NG would pay big $$$ for a fake TF when (if CD was correct) we should already have 1000's on display in the worlds NHM? You, just like Tommy, will duck and jive to avoid this fact of reality that the fossil record does not contain TF in abundance as CD predicted it would. Nebraska man/Piltdown man/NG's raptor-bird all demonstrate that the macro TOE crowd are still searching for their holy grail the ever elusive TF. While at the same time millions have been unearthed showing critters in current state.
Bullshit claims and silly fulminatons with no support whatsoever is not initative. It is only noise. And I very much doubt that you have opened a single link that you have been given by others as well as myself.
(bill) why can't you just answer in your own words? Why is every post of yours a link off into cyberspace? Speak for yourself bro...
Now, I have given entirely satisfactory, to any sane and reasonable person, answers to the more reasonable of your questions. It is time for you to reply in kind.
1. What is your version of reality.
(bill) That TF do not exist no mater how much hand waving you want to do, no matter how many cyber links you spout out the fact remains that millions of fossils have been unearthed of species fully intact and that there are no TF showing mutation from species to another no matter how bad the macro crowd once their to be.
2. With what would you replace the ToE in the schools?
(bill) see above
regards Bill
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:14:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
[quote]
Thus any genes that improve the likelyhood of the survival and reproduction of the organism will be passed on and the traits they produce will be more common. After a sufficient number of generations the descendants will look nothing like the ancestors unless the ancestors were very well adapted to the environment already and any major changes would be detrimental in that environment.
Yes that is right just like I said. As you go north the dogs have longer hair. BUT THEY ARE STILL DOGS. THEY DID NOT TURN INTO WHALES. THE fossil record offers no evidence of random mutation from a lizzard to bird. I know you don't like that news but it is just a fact. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:17:42 [Permalink]
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Here is something of at least passing interest:
 From Hyracotherium to Equus, to Hippidon, the equine family tree.
Now if someone were really curious, he might select a species and research it. Might find out something he didn't know.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:22:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Here is something of at least passing interest:
From Hyracotherium to Equus, to Hippidon, the equine family tree.
Now if someone were really curious, he might select a species and research it. Might find out something he didn't know.
Another cyberlink bro? Come on, I know you can do better then that. 1000's of TF in our NHMs and I want your 5 personal favorite and their location of display. This is not as difucult as you are making it.
regards bill |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:24:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill:
BUT THEY ARE STILL DOGS. THEY DID NOT TURN INTO WHALES.
You have just proved how completely unqualified you are to discuss the theory of evolution, since you are totally clueless about what it is and what it explains.
Therefore please answer my questions about how your holy bible is completely at odds with the evidence:
quote:
If the bible is true, then the earth is only 10,000 years or so old. Threre should be hardly any fossils, and certainly none older than 10K years. Why are there so many that are significantly older? And why so many that are far older than the oldest humanoid?
If the bible is true, then the earth is only 10,000 years or so old. There shouldn't be any deposits of oil or natural gas, yet we find them all over the globe. Why is that, Bill?
Start with those two, and please direct us to the museums which support your answers.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:26:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Here is something of at least passing interest:
From Hyracotherium to Equus, to Hippidon, the equine family tree.
Now if someone were really curious, he might select a species and research it. Might find out something he didn't know.
Oh yeah, and why was it that NG paid big jack for a fake TF if they would have already existed in abundance as CD said they would? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:29:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bill:
BUT THEY ARE STILL DOGS. THEY DID NOT TURN INTO WHALES.
You have just proved how completely unqualified you are to discuss the theory of evolution, since you are totally clueless about what it is and what it explains.
.[/quote]
[/quote]
So where are all the TF in abundance that CD said we would find? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:46:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Here is something of at least passing interest:
From Hyracotherium to Equus, to Hippidon, the equine family tree.
Now if someone were really curious, he might select a species and research it. Might find out something he didn't know.
Oh yeah, and why was it that NG paid big jack for a fake TF if they would have already existed in abundance as CD said they would?
I haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about. References, please.
From TalkOrigins -- yeah yeah, I know, But I'm too lazy to look up Dr. Clack's papers.
Transition from fin to foot
quote:
Transition from primitive bony fish to amphibians
Few people realize that the fish-amphibian transition was not a transition from water to land. It was a transition from fins to feet that took place in the water. The very first amphibians seem to have developed legs and feet to scud around on the bottom in the water, as some modern fish do, not to walk on land (see Edwards, 1989). This aquatic-feet stage meant the fins didn't have to change very quickly, the weight-bearing limb musculature didn't have to be very well developed, and the axial musculature didn't have to change at all. Recently found fragmented fossils from the middle Upper Devonian, and new discoveries of late Upper Devonian feet (see below), support this idea of an "aquatic feet" stage. Eventually, of course, amphibians did move onto the land. This involved attaching the pelvis more firmly to the spine, and separating the shoulder from the skull. Lungs were not a problem, since lungs are an ancient fish trait and were present already.
Oh wait, it's Archeoraptor, isn't it? National Geographic didn't pay for the fossil -- they don't do that in any case. A private collector bought it at a gem show, after it had been smuggled out of China, for something like $80,000. He passed it on to National Geographic for conformation, who, understandablly excited, published before peer rewiew was finished, a huge mistake they are still trying to live down. Both the Journals of Science and Nature rejected the fossil. It's owner gave it to Dr. Xu Xing, who took it back to China and found that even though it was a fraud, it was still a valuable find in that it was comprised of two as yet unamed species.
Do try to avoid using so many acronyms. they tend to be confusing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 08:51:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
[...] lizards turning to birds, wolfs to whales, monkeys to men etc. [...] there would have been billions and billions of creatures that died along the way in the transitional state and they would have produced millions of fossils showing them in this state.
Okay, I get it. You want to see a fossil of a creature that is part one animal and part another. I knew you didn't understand the process of evolution. You've made that abundantly clear. But what you're suggesting makes it appear that you are just plain stupid. In fact it's such a ridiculous idea that it escaped me completely, and when I did realize what you were asking I actually had to laugh. 
Several times it's been suggested that you go educate yourself on the issue of evolution. How did filthy put it, "Get off your lazy ass and learn for yourself?" That's very good advice. You don't have the understanding of an eight year old. You can't possibly expect to engage in an intelligent discussion on evolution with your current, completely incorrect notion of how it works.
We have trolls who come to these boards and intentionally say stupid things, and most of them haven't been able to top your inanity. Either you're a troll, too, or you truly are one of the most uninformed, unintelligent people who ever attempted to discuss evolution on this forum.quote:
1. Where are all the TFs that CD predicted we would discover in ABUNDANCE?
2. Please explain IN YOUR OWN WORDS the functioning mechanism for TOEs natural selection and how it can program with reason and purpose as TH says it can.
Every question you've asked has been answered. The fact that you don't have the brainpower to understand, or perhaps you have a mental illness which prevents your understanding, does not invalidate the answers. On the flip side, you haven't answered these simple questions that have been asked of you. Here they are again...
1. What is your version of reality?
2. With what would you replace the ToE in the schools?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:04:22 [Permalink]
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Everyone, it seems, loves the time of the dinosaurs; about the JUrassic through the Cretatious. But not me; the Devonian was where the real action was at!
Here is another of my favorites:
quote:
ICHTYOSTEGA AS A TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL
by Lenny Flank
(c) 1995
The creationists are fond of stating that there are "no transitionals in the fossil record". One of the best fossil transitionals, however, is that of Icthyostega, which combines the traits of both fishes and amphibians, and represents the transition between aquatic and terrestrial vertebrate life.
Terrestrial vertebrates are a decendent of a class of ancient fishes called "lobe-finned fish", or Crossopterygians. In particular, the freshwater family of Crossopterygians known as the Rhipidistians have a number of unique traits in common with terrestrial vertebrates. The freshwater Rhipidistians appear to have been the direct ancestors of the earliest land vertebrates, while the other Crossopterygians went on to become specialized as deep-sea marine fishes. (Because deep-sea animals are rarely fossilized, there is not a trace of the Crossopterygians in the fossil record after the end of the Cretaceous period, about 65 million years ago. Nevertheless, we know that the Crossopterygians became more and more specialized for a deep-sea life because in 1939 a living Crossopterygian, the ceolacanth Lattimeria, was dredged up from a deep sea trench off the coast of Africa.)
This animal, together with Acanthrostega fossils found in Iceland have taught us a lot about their times.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:06:25 [Permalink]
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Okay, you answered this question while I was posting, so I hadn't seen your reply...quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...
1. What is your version of reality.
(bill) That TF do not exist no mater how much hand waving you want to do, no matter how many cyber links you spout out the fact remains that millions of fossils have been unearthed of species fully intact and that there are no TF showing mutation from species to another no matter how bad the macro crowd once their to be.
You're wrong. Transitional fossils exist and are available for your viewing in museums, publications, and through links you've been provided to sites on the internet. Your problem is that you are too stupid to understand, or maybe you refuse to understand because it might rattle your faith. I think they call that cognitive dissonance.
You're going to hear this a lot: You don't understand evolution, and until you do you will never be able to engage in an intelligent discussion on the issue. If you want to discuss it, get off your lazy ass and learn about it for yourself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:12:41 [Permalink]
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A blast from the past:
quote:
Bill Scott:
you tell me that our DNA cells "program themselves"
to die off and replace themselves with inferior cells
ultimately leading to death. The "reason" (as if blind
random mutation has a reason for anything) for this is
to limit the life span of the individual as not to over-
populate the planet earth.
quote:
Tommy:
I don''t recall saying that. I even went back and reread our previous correspondence, but couldn''t find it there, either. Please retrieve the original email where you found that statement and send it to me to refresh my memory.
Bill is still running with a probable misunderstanding of what Tommy was saying. He is still spouting what he thinks is the gist of what Tommy said without sourcing the original letter so that Tommy could respond. Now, again, he has brought up what he thinks Tommy said and yet to date has not provided anything to support his assertion.
Edited to add:
Tommy did respond to Bills assertion anyway. Turns out Bill lifted it from a letter that was not written to Bill. Bill has chosen to ignore Tommy's response for the sake of this debate, demonstrating that Bill is a liar.
Bill, you haven't changed a bit. If you want to show that Tommy was being silly, provide the original quote with surrounding context. Otherwise I will continue to consider you a one trick pony and a liar to boot.
I know that you will never ever regard any fossil as being transitional no matter how compelling the fossil is. You can't go there, and really, that is fine with me. Your objections will not change a thing.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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