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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:15:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga...
Not according to the law, nor according to the majority of the population's sense of morality.
First, I'd need to see your evidence that the majority of the population thinks it's okay to steal what other people have invested their time and effort into creating.
Second, even if that were indeed a fact, that doesn't make it okay with the rest of us. Come in the middle of the night and try to steal my car, just one of the things that I have earned by working hard. You're likely to find yourself in a face off with a .357 magnum. Perhaps you just don't understand the concept of earning. Perhaps you've simply been given what you have so far. But believe me, that doesn't entitle you to simply take whatever you want from the rest of us.
I may be wrong, but you seem to keep groping for justification for your own lack of scruples. If you're a thief, you're a thief. There's not really any way you can make that okay with those of us who don't want you stealing the results of our hard work. And it's too bad you don't get it. Someday someone's liable to shoot you because you think it's okay to take what other people have worked for.
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Bunga
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
74 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:20:16 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure how I can continue arguing without repeating things I have already written. I may not be a world-class debater, but I know that repeating things in a louder and louder voice isn't quite the way to go.
If a person were to go into a museum and take a photo of a painting without permission, is he a thief? |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:21:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
So every time I listen to that song on the radio, I am stealing it. Every time it plays on my TV, I am stealing it. Every time I sit on a park bench I am stealing the bench. Or not.
In Sweden, radio stations and TV pays the organization STIM for the right to broadcast music or readings of books.
All kinds of broadcasts are concerned: Any retail store that plays music for their customers has to pay STIM for the right to do it.
Elevator music...
Even my local massage studio pays STIM for the right to play relaxing music while I get massage.
The Park Bench you sit on is put there for public use, equal to "public domain". You can park your ass there for a while, but you can't take it with you. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bunga
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
74 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:25:12 [Permalink]
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| Mab, every time I buy a empty CD or DVD I am also paying STIM, but unless I download some music for that CD, I am not getting anything for my money. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:36:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
If a person were to go into a museum and take a photo of a painting without permission, is he a thief?
He would be, because he was taking something he wasn't allowed to take.
Museums displays stuff for public consumption: you may go there and watch. In many instances you may not even have to pay entrance fees, and may take pics to your heart's content. Brittish Museum in London is such a place. But BM owns the right to display their stuff.
I wasn't allowed to take photos of the Diamons Exhibition at the Museum of Natural History when I was there this summer, though my heart ached to capture some of the diamonds on photo.
But museums sell replicas and representations of their stuff, you can buy them...
And taking your own photo of Mona Lisa only gives you a poor quality photo of the real thing. Just like my dad only has an amateur copy of a Reuben painting, but at least the painting has genuine paint texture. But Reuben is dead, and has been for a while. He won't be missing out on any potential money dad paied for the painting. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:38:46 [Permalink]
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| I think it's wrong. No different than copying a piece of software people spent many hours working on. But music's for entertainment? So is software now... could as well be a piece of entertainment software created at great labor. The same. |
Ron White |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:42:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
I'm not sure how I can continue arguing without repeating things I have already written. I may not be a world-class debater, but I know that repeating things in a louder and louder voice isn't quite the way to go.
If a person were to go into a museum and take a photo of a painting without permission, is he a thief?
If a person goes to a museum and takes the painting off the wall to sell, is he a thief? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bunga
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
74 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:43:29 [Permalink]
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| The status, alive or dead, of the creator has little to do with anything since the rights continue for 70 years after his death. Calling that photo theft is absurd. No one has lost anything, nor has anyone gained anything they didn't already have. The photographer aleady had a copy of the painting in his memory, after all. A photo may be a slightly more accurate reproduction than memory, but that is matter of detail. Calling copying theft is absurd. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:44:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
If a person were to go into a museum and take a photo of a painting without permission, is he a thief?
He would be, because he was taking something he wasn't allowed to take.
Museums displays stuff for public consumption: you may go there and watch. In many instances you may not even have to pay entrance fees, and may take pics to your heart's content. Brittish Museum in London is such a place. But BM owns the right to display their stuff.
I wasn't allowed to take photos of the Diamons Exhibition at the Museum of Natural History when I was there this summer, though my heart ached to capture some of the diamonds on photo.
But museums sell replicas and representations of their stuff, you can buy them...
And taking your own photo of Mona Lisa only gives you a poor quality photo of the real thing. Just like my dad only has an amateur copy of a Reuben painting, but at least the painting has genuine paint texture. But Reuben is dead, and has been for a while. He won't be missing out on any potential money dad paied for the painting.
And let's not forget that the taking of flash photography inherently damages the original. They found that out the hard way with written documents. Many museums prohibit taking flash photography. Even the various magazines have to get permission to take (non-flash) photographs of artwork and publish it. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 14:49:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
Mab, every time I buy a empty CD or DVD I am also paying STIM, but unless I download some music for that CD, I am not getting anything for my money.
That is partly true of course.
The tax was originally thought to cover cassettes for then it was popular to record broadcasts on tape. Like, recording you favourite song from the radio. The quality of the radio transmission and the recording deck was usually much less than an original record bought at the store. I think this tax is wrong, and should be abolished, but the government did expand it to include digital media. So when I'm taking backups of stuff I created, I have to pay STIM for shit they have no right to.
Expanding the Recordable Media Tax to include digital media is to acknowledge there is a lot of piracy going on, and making decent law abiding citizens pay for it. That sucks, so I find myself more inclined to download stuff.
For me, this is a moral grey area. I missed the last two episodes of "Prison Break" on TV, and forgot to tape it. Is it right or wrong for me to download the episodes in order to catch up?
This is the instance where the Recordable Media Tax is justifiable. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 15:09:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
Calling copying theft is absurd.
If I buy printing equipment, shoot out thousands of copies of the next newly-released "Harry Potter" book, and sell them, will you be my lawyer if I'm arrested for copyright infringement? I should have plenty of cash on hand for a retainer. |
Ron White |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 15:11:27 [Permalink]
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Good grief that hair is being split really fine.
Bunga, if you take something of value without paying for it, when the owner wants payment, it's theft.
By the way, over here in the U.S., it isn't a criminal act to portray yourself as the creator of an artwork when, in fact, it is someone else's work. Is it actually a crime in Sweden? You said "fraud," but is that a crime or just a civil action? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 16:24:32 [Permalink]
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I am particularly guilty of this form of theft, if such it be.
When I was driving big truck, I used to dub a copy from another tape or CD to listen to over the endless miles. If I had an especally good one, I'd make a couple of copies to trade with other drivers. I used the original as a master only, as mysterious and horrible things happen to tapes riding in tractor/trailers and I was forever replacing favorites.
Somehow, I fail to feel much guilt for this -- must be yet another flaw in my charector.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 16:34:20 [Permalink]
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| Sure, I've done it too. Hippocrits abound. |
Ron White |
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Bunga
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
74 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2006 : 17:29:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
If I buy printing equipment, shoot out thousands of copies of the next newly-released "Harry Potter" book, and sell them, will you be my lawyer if I'm arrested for copyright infringement? I should have plenty of cash on hand for a retainer.
I'm sorry, but I am not qualified to act as anyone's lawyer in my own country, let alone yours. But I would be happy to do research on precedents and applicable arguments, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Good grief that hair is being split really fine.
Bunga, if you take something of value without paying for it, when the owner wants payment, it's theft.
By the way, over here in the U.S., it isn't a criminal act to portray yourself as the creator of an artwork when, in fact, it is someone else's work. Is it actually a crime in Sweden? You said "fraud," but is that a crime or just a civil action?
"Misledande marknadsföring" which translates to something similar to "advertising with the intent to mislead" is a type of fraud here, yes. I am not sure what the difference between a "crime" and a "civil action" is, my knowledge of US legal terms just about covers the difference between a felony and misdemeanour. |
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