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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 11/14/2001 : 22:40:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nature is always devising ways to kill us.
Too right it is, I just wonder if someday nature will ultimately be successful and some cataclysmic event will happen over we have no control over (sorry being pessimistic again) and what species would bounce back most successfully if such an event would happen
It just amazes me how far we have come in as little as 10,000 years compared to other species.....
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 04:48:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think we are not far off from altering our genes and that we will be able to completely eradicate Down's Syndrome etc. There won't be anything natural about the direction we want to evolve ourselves.
I'm going to throw in a small quibble here, or maybe a clarification.
In the statement above, it's important to realize that the word "natural" could be misleading. Human beings are part of the natural world, and as such, everything we do and create is "natural" -- in the sense of "not supernatural".
But I think you mean it in the sense of "not artificial"... that is, created by human intellect, rather than by unconscious (or less conscious) actions and events within the biosphere.
But even deliberate human intervention in the genome is "natural selection" of a sort, just as is plant breeding or livestock domestication. The process is different and more efficient, and we have yet to see whether the planet can adjust to it, but it's here, and it's only going to get more intense.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 06:07:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nature is always devising ways to kill us.
I always cringe when nature is anthropomorphized.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 10:08:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I think we are not far off from altering our genes and that we will be able to completely eradicate Down's Syndrome etc. There won't be anything natural about the direction we want to evolve ourselves.
I'm going to throw in a small quibble here, or maybe a clarification.
In the statement above, it's important to realize that the word "natural" could be misleading. Human beings are part of the natural world, and as such, everything we do and create is "natural" -- in the sense of "not supernatural".
But I think you mean it in the sense of "not artificial"... that is, created by human intellect, rather than by unconscious (or less conscious) actions and events within the biosphere.
But even deliberate human intervention in the genome is "natural selection" of a sort, just as is plant breeding or livestock domestication. The process is different and more efficient, and we have yet to see whether the planet can adjust to it, but it's here, and it's only going to get more intense.
Cool, this is what I've been arguing for years. The functional opposite of 'natural' is 'supernatural' rather than 'artificial' as far as I am concerned. Thanks for reminding me Donnie.
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 10:18:29 [Permalink]
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Geez: I wasn't trying to say that medicine was a bad thing, far from it, modern medicine continues to amaze me. My worry is what will ultimately happen to the human race if we are allowed to continue unchecked by circumventing the laws that have been in place for 3 1/2 billion years.......
Geez you aren't listening closely enough to Donnie.
We aren't circumventing any "evolutionary laws," at all.
It is a human conceit that we aren't members of the animal kingdom. Somehow our super intelligence has placed us above the other creatures on this globe. Evolution has made us "progress" to this wonderful condition. You were startled and pleased at how much we have advanced, compared to other animals, in only the last ten thousand years.
I hate to be the one who breaks it to you but evolution has nothing to do with progress, we are still only primates.
The only reason that we think that intelligence is important is because that is one of our species secondary sexual attributes.
Sounds strange? Here's how it works. When an animal develops an attribute that is way out of scale with the rest of it's body it, invariably, is for a single reason--attracting a mate. Take for instance the tail of a peacock. The thing is huge and slows the bird down so much it is easy pry. Yet it gets the girls, so they go with it.
Our brain cases are too big to fit through female's birth canals. All human babies are born "premature" with their skull bones unsolidified. They must be cared for for years instead of the short time the other primates enjoy.
But smart is sexy--when was the last time you asked a Down's Syndrome girl out to diner and a movie?
That's what works for us. I'm told by the people down at the Gorilla Foundation that the apes find people quite ugly.
What makes evolution work are the "side effects" of evolutionary attributes. In the first great extinction event only those life forms that were tolerant of oxygen survived. Probably they were coated with a slime similar to that which coats the insides of our lungs. There had been no free oxygen before then so this toleration was pure chance.
A number of dinosaurs had scales like reptiles. If you dick with the genes of reptile scales just a tiny bit they become feathers. Remember evolution isn't progress, merely change. Feathers are nice and warm-merely by chance-and allowed the dinos with them to live in colder areas. Plus (and a big plus) this colorful plumage attracted mates. The more lush the feathers the more likely you were to find a girlfriend-the main driving force of evolution.
But in this world it is the "side effects" that really count. One side effect of owning plumage that has been exaggerated as a sexual attraction is that you can fly.
A more important side effect was found when an asteroid crashed into the Earth. When something catastrophic happens you cannot slowly develop a tolerance, you have only the side effects of your present attributes to bank on. All the dinosaurs were killed--EXCEPT those which had developed breeding plumage as a sexual attraction. The birds were saved by sex.
Okay, say another world destroying event happens. Say four thousand years from now the sun goes Nova. Are there any creatures that could survive such a catastrophe?
Yes, if a creature attracted mates through exaggerated communication abilities, by use of an over sized brain, one side effect will be that they will invent space travel. Astronauts will be saved by sex.
{As an aside: It should also be noticed that, compared to all the other primates, we have also developed exaggerated breasts and penises. These might not save us in the event of a global catastrophe but they're sure nice to have around. Beats the swollen rumps that the baboons find so appealing.}
The fact that our peacock's tails of brains allow us to conquer disease and even change our, and other species, genes is still pure and simple Darwinian evolution. If we change genes or gamma rays change them, they are still changed.
Humans are not apart from nature. We are very much a part of it. If our actions, which are merely the out come of the side effects of our search for mates, change the planet (s) it is no more "un-natural" than when algae created an oxygen rich atmosphere, or coral reefs change ocean currents and thus the global climate.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 14:26:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Humans are not apart from nature. We are very much a part of it. If our actions, which are merely the out come of the side effects of our search for mates, change the planet (s) it is no more "un-natural" than when algae created an oxygen rich atmosphere, or coral reefs change ocean currents and thus the global climate.
I am not denying this, just that this is the first time in the history of life on earth that we are understanding how genetics works. Actuall going in and tinkering with DNA and pre-empting what can happen to the next generation is a lot different to the natural processes that have been going on for a few billion years. I totally agree we are not apart from nature, it is just what we are doing is taking evolution to a new level.
My question was, I probably didn't word it right...will taking this next step be detrimental or advantageous for us.
In the short term, it will be great, imagine a world without disease and sickness, but with these advances would overpopulation be detrimental to the planet. I mean, theres only so much of the crap we deal out that this planet can take.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 14:41:27 [Permalink]
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In the short term, it will be great, imagine a world without disease and sickness, but with these advances would overpopulation be detrimental to the planet. I mean, theres only so much of the crap we deal out that this planet can take.
Correct. If we don't do something about overpopulation and can't feed/house everyone then we'll see people die of starvation and things will take care of themselves. This was as true 10,000 years ago as it is now and will be in 10,000 years.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 14:50:16 [Permalink]
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My question was, I probably didn't word it right...will taking this next step be detrimental or advantageous for us.
Detrimageous... 
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 14:56:59 [Permalink]
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Correct. If we don't do something about overpopulation and can't feed/house everyone then we'll see people die of starvation and things will take care of themselves. This was as true 10,000 years ago as it is now and will be in 10,000 years.
It's not just the housing and feeding of us....what will be left of our resources and our natural beauty as well. We are all part of this planet, and sometimes I wonder whether we deserve this gift of intelligence that nature has given us when all we do is bite the hand that feeds us.
I shouldn't post replies when I am at work...they allways seem so bloody sombre.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 17:17:45 [Permalink]
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But you are making value judgements on evolution.It's mindless so it knows no right or wrong.
Some things live, and other die.
The overwhelming majority of species are extinct.
Having evolved a high intelligence might save us--then again it might not. All depends on what exactly we have to face.
Remember all the T Rexs are dead--but the place is lousey with pigeons. It's hard to say just what "the right stuff" is until you actually need it. Intelligence might not be what counts in the end.
I suggest that you go home and have a beer. The END isn't due for some time yet (this is Thursday, right?), it won't help by worrying about it.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 17:48:27 [Permalink]
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The beer idea is fantastic...actually more than fantastic, it't f%@&ing terrific...it is Friday lunchtime here at the moment...and I am just about to have 3 days off to go surfing...
Maybe when I come back I might be more positive, sorry to bring you all down.
"Damn you people. Go back to your shanties." --- Shooter McGavin |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2001 : 23:53:10 [Permalink]
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Somehow our super intelligence has placed us above the other creatures on this globe.
What super intelligence?
And who says we are above other creatures?
I think Man is no more or less equal with anything else on Earth or in the universe. Some creatures might be more important some less than Man. But humans are not better above all.
Rap Crap is to music what Paint by Numbers is to art. |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 05:34:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Somehow our super intelligence has placed us above the other creatures on this globe.
What super intelligence?
And who says we are above other creatures?
I think Man is no more or less equal with anything else on Earth or in the universe. Some creatures might be more important some less than Man. But humans are not better above all.
I agree. In fact, if you were to strip away all of our technology and stuff, we'd move down a rung on the food chain in some places.
"Hey Butt-Head check this book out! There's a talking snake, a naked chick, then some guy puts a leaf on his SCHLONG!!" [Beavis and Butt-Head Do America] |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 08:35:42 [Permalink]
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Context, gentlemen, context.
Picking out phrases will not give you the meaning of what I wrote.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Peter de Blanc
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2001 : 20:55:39 [Permalink]
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I agree. In fact, if you were to strip away all of our technology and stuff, we'd move down a rung on the food chain in some places.
Well, for that matter, so would the bear if you took away its claws and teeth. Or the snake if you took away its venom. Or the scorpion if you took away its stinger. Or the cheetah if you took away its speed. Or the ant if you took away its hive. Or the bird if you took away its wings...
Our technology is a product of our intellect, and intellect is no less integral to the human form than the moo is to the bovine form.
I won't make a point about superiority of one species over another, but nobody can deny that we humans have made quite an impact.
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